Uvalde - the followup

11-year-old killed in Iowa school shooting remembered as a joyful boy who loved soccer and singing​

Ahmir Jolliff was killed before class even started, when a 17-year-old student at Perry High School opened fire in the cafeteria.

www.nbcnews.com

11-year-old killed in Iowa school shooting remembered as a joyful boy who loved soccer and singing

Ahmir Jolliff was killed before class even started, when a 17-year-old student at Perry High School opened fire in the cafeteria.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
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thehill.com

Trump tells Iowans to ‘get over’ recent school shooting: ‘We have to move forward’

Former President Trump shared his condolences for the victims and their families of a recent school shooting in Iowa during a campaign stop in the Hawkeye State Friday — but then urged his supporte…
thehill.com thehill.com

Of course Republicans gotta stay the course

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Shiftless2 said:
"Of course Republicans gotta stay the course" #61
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Seems to me this massacre crisis in the U.S. is being fiddled with as a "gun" problem.
Might we make better progress with it if instead we perceive it for what it seems to be, a mental health crisis? Are guns the problem, or merely a convenient choice for the mentally ill bent on massacre?
 
sear said:
Might we make better progress with it if instead we perceive it for what it seems to be, a mental health crisis? Are guns the problem, or merely a convenient choice for the mentally ill bent on massacre?
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Given that this seems to be almost entirely an American problem that would make sense if (and only if) other countries didn't have their own mental health crises. Why, other than the availability of guns, is the US different from other countries?
 
Shiftless2 said:
"Given that this seems to be almost entirely an American problem that would make sense if (and only if) other countries didn't have their own mental health crises. Why, other than the availability of guns, is the US different from other countries?" #63
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One obvious counter:
most U.S. citizens that own a gun don't perpetrate mass carnage with it. That doesn't relieve the guilty of their guilt.

#63 insinuates that the firearms implications of mental illness in nations other than the U.S. will / must manifest themselves in a statistically similar or identical way to the U.S.
Apparently not. BUT !!

That's no legitimate justification to ignore the mental health aspect of this ongoing American carnage. Not to dismiss, or underestimate the formidable difficulty. But to solve the problem it helps to address the cause(s) of the problem.

And to mirror (reverse) the perception of #63,
if guns in the U.S. are the true locus of the problem, why are they not equally so, or proportionally so in Switzerland, where many homes have advanced military small arms?
 

Key takeaways from the federal report on the Uvalde massacre
By Brad Brooks / January 18, 2024 6:55 PM GMT-5

Jan 18 (Reuters) - The U.S. Justice Department on Thursday released its report on the 2022 Robb Elementary school shooting in Uvalde, Texas, that saw 19 young students and two teachers killed.
Here are some of its key findings:

ACTIVE SHOOTER​

The report found that "the most significant failure was that responding officers should have immediately recognized the
incident as an active shooter situation" and not treat it as a "barricaded subject" scenario.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/key-takeaways-federal-report-uvalde-massacre-2024-01-18/

Does this reduce the explanation for police failure (refusal) to respond, to one of two explanations?
- Stupidity
- Cowardice

Or a 3rd explanation?

The above quoted article continues:
"Ever since the 1999 Columbine High Shooting in Colorado, officers have been taught that "the first priority must be to immediately neutralize the subject," the report stated.
"This did not occur during the Robb Elementary shooting response, where there was a 77-minute gap between when officers first arrived on the scene and when they finally confronted and killed the subject," the report read.
The report says the gunman fired off 45 shots in the presence of officers - making it clear that he was an ongoing and active threat.

- global backslide -
 

Families Sue Kentucky Gun Shop That Sold AR-15 Used in 2023 Bank Shooting That Killed 5​

The Kentucky gun shop that sold the assault weapon used to kill five people at a Louisville bank is facing a lawsuit from survivors and families of the victims

The Kentucky gun shop that sold an assault weapon to a man who used it to kill five co-workers and wrote in his journal the gun was “so easy” to buy is facing a lawsuit filed Monday from survivors and families of the victims.

The civil suit filed in Louisville alleges River City Firearms should have been more suspicious of the sale and noticed red flags when Connor Sturgeon bought the gun six days before the April 10 shooting. Sturgeon walked into Old National Bank and opened fire on co-workers who were having a morning meeting, killing five and injuring several others. A responding police officer was also shot.

Sturgeon, 25, struggled with mental illness and wrote in a journal he was “very ...

CONTINUED
 
Shiftless2 said:
"The Kentucky gun shop that sold the assault weapon used to kill five people at a Louisville bank is facing a lawsuit from survivors and families of the victims" #66
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I suspect this is the consequence of radicalization on both sides. BUT
It would seem to risk an unworkable legal precedent.

If a gun shop can be sued for that, why not then sue an automobile dealership if a car is used to plow into a pedestrian crowd, or bash open the doors of a store or bank?

And if that, also sue a manufacturer of agricultural chemicals if a pesticide is used to poison a municipal water supply, ... and Katie bar the door.

We have a terribly serious gun problem in the U.S.
We have an urgent need of durable remedy.
If you'll pardon an ill-chosen metaphor, I don't think such lawsuit is the silver bullet we might wish it to be. I wish I had a better answer.
 
#66 & #67
BUT !
In 2021 a minor perpetrated a gun massacre in Michigan at Oxford High School, killing 4 wounding 7.
Then 15 year old Ethan Crumbley was sentenced to life in prison. ho hum - ... seen news like that before, BUT !

Now Ethan's parents James & Jennifer Crumbley are on trial for involuntary manslaughter.
The source of this information, the 24/01/23 broadcast of the PBS NewsHour characterizes this as a "first-of-its-kind effort to hold parents criminally responsible for a school shooting done by their child."

My opinion:
There are entire categories of crime & criminal misconduct where U.S. law is so lenient it might well be a causative factor in a significant number of cases.

PBS reports:
The day before the shooting Oxford high school informed Jennifer Crumbley her son was looking up ammunition on his phone.
Reportedly mother Jennifer Crumbley responded: "lol. I'm not mad. You have to learn not to get caught." Nov. 29, 2021 12:30PM

That seems like damning evidence to me.
Not entirely clear how useful a conviction could be in this case, unless similar evidence of such parental collusion is common, & commonly available to prosecutors of other similar school shootings.

Fact is, the idea is not to punish the criminal, but to discourage / prevent the crime.

Wait and see.
 

Uvalde - the followup in context of #69​

Unintended consequences?
I'm all for holding citizens responsible. But is there risk of significant consequence here? It's a hypothetical in the extreme, but might it risk (further) reducing the national birthrate, because prospective parents aren't willing to risk the liability?
 

Schadenfreude​

Reports indicate she could be sentenced to decades behind bars.
But cheer up. Her hubby is due for a trial of his own, and this Crumbley conviction sets a precedent that will leave hubby Crumbley as well. - hoorah -

PS
"Whut wur yoo thuinkin' ?!" Dr. Phil
 

Built-It-Yourself Gun Kit Manufacturer Paying Baltimore $1.2 Million In Settlement Over Increasing Violence, Report Says​

Mary Whitfill Roeloffs

The city of Baltimore will receive a $1.2 million payout to settle a lawsuit with build-it-yourself gun kit producer Polymer80, the Baltimore Sun reported, after officials claimed the company’s “ghost guns” were becoming increasingly prevalent in local crime, making Batimore at least the third city to settle a complaint involving the manufacturer.

CONTINUED

From the article

Wednesday's settlement does not apply to Hanover Armory, a firearms dealer that sold Polymer products and was also named as a defendant in the city's lawsuit—that litigation is ongoing and scheduled for trial in October, according to the Baltimore Sun.
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Shiftless2 said:
"The city of Baltimore will receive a $1.2 million payout to settle a lawsuit with build-it-yourself gun kit producer Polymer80" #73
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"The army loses by not winning. The guerrilla wins by not losing." Henry Kissinger
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Yes Hank, the bad guys are on perpetual offense,
the good guys forever forced to defend
or die.

P.U.
 
Re #71

Michigan school shooter's parents sentenced to at least 10 years in prison​

Prosecutors asked for at least 10 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter​

Ed WhiteBy

The parents of a Michigan school shooter were each sentenced to at least 10 years in prison Tuesday for failing to take steps that could have prevented the killing of four students in 2021.

Jennifer and James Crumbley are the first parents convicted in a U.S. mass school shooting. They were found guilty of involuntary manslaughter after prosecutors presented evidence of an unsecured gun at home and indifference toward the teen’s mental health.

Ethan Crumbley drew dark images of a gun, a bullet and a wounded man on a math assignment, accompanied by despondent phrases. Staff at Oxford High School did not ...

CONTINUED
 
Shiftless2 said:
"Prosecutors asked for at least 10 years in prison ..." #75
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It's a start.
But I doubt it'll have much deterrent affect until such punishment is perceived as a likelihood. AND:

there are other elements of residential gun safety still chronically neglected, secure firearms storage an obvious example.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There's a broader institutional issue here such as the parents shifting responsibility to the school.
We see an example of this in something as fundamental as the student's breakfast menu.
The parents feed the child breakfast cereal that's nearly 50% sugar. This can precipitate student symptoms resembling ADHD, for which the student is then prescribed Ritalin.
 

One Sydney cop did what 400 Texas cops couldn’t do.​


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www.abc.net.au

'Enormous courage': Lone officer saved lives by confronting and shooting Bondi Junction attacker

A senior police officer who acted alone to halt a stabbing rampage at a Bondi Junction shopping centre on Saturday is being lauded for her life-saving bravery.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

For the record, it wasn't that those Texas cops couldn't do anything. It's that they wouldn't do anything (except arrest parents who tried to save their kids)
 
Shiftless2 said:
"For the record, it wasn't that those Texas cops couldn't do anything. It's that they wouldn't do anything (except arrest parents who tried to save their kids)" #77
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Yes AND !
I'd like to know why. Did the armed first responders follow their SOP or not?

note:
Our population of first responders seems to divide roughly into two categories:
- those that want to accomplish something, like promote public safety, &
- those that want to be somebody, to wear a uniform, but not have to risk getting it dirty.
 
I'd like to know why. Did the armed first responders follow their SOP or not?
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It's a given that the powers that be (aka the relevant police departments) will do their best to sweep everything under the rug and do their best to be sure that the public knows as little as possible about the results of their investigations.
 
Shiftless2 said:
"It's a given that the powers that be (aka the relevant police departments) will do their best to sweep everything under the rug and do their best to be sure that the public knows as little as possible about the results of their investigations." #79
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Which presents the appearance they have something to hide.

Seems to me the problem is systemic.
Systemic problems call for systemic solutions.

There are institutions, systems where personnel are held accountable.

Failure to fix this is institutional acceptance of the status quo.

Shiftless2 said:
" sweep everything under the rug " #79
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In trivial / low-consequence matters, understandable.

Seems to me once there are corpses of children ...
"Sunlight is the best disinfectant". Louis D. Brandeis
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