Russia Targets An Empty German Consulate in Kiev - Latest Reports (Edit)

No interest in ragging on you Vic, on the contrary, your forum / your rules. More to the point, hope everything is good with you regardless and your brother's alright.

It's only a forum and no big deal in the grand scheme of things is it?
 
"This one is about russia." D #40

You gave me a severe Rip Van Winkle moment Mr. D.
I retired at age 43 in 1997. I built a concrete and steel tower in the forest, inside Adirondack Park, NY. I've been living here ever since.
I lead a life of leisure, making "news" & current events a hobby. Thus the CitizenVoice.us domain.

But I am occasionally jolted by how the world, augmented by years of pandemic isolation, has passed me by.
In the past day or 2 you informed me Russia's been totalitarian for a decade. That was indeed a jolt.

It's all such a horrid tragedy.

I'll say this:
On 09/11/01 while the rubble was still smoldering, a French newspaper headline was published including illustration of one of the stricken towers before it fell.
I don't vividly recall the headline wording. It was in French. I don't speak French. And it was decades ago.
None the less I think it said something like: today we're all American
a journalistic expression of solidarity.

That as context, much of the world are Ukrainian, and so deeply appreciative of the heroic efforts of the brave men & women that are helping to rescue their homeland.

I've never seen a one-sided coin. The reciprocal of my admiration & appreciation for Ukrainians is my disgust with Putin. I wish one or more of his subordinate commanders would do him in.
I consider it monumentally unlikely.
 
Any authoritarian "strong man" national leader would be a fool to not be actively on guard against a palace coup d'état. I can't believe Putin doesn't know enough Russian history to know some of the techniques Stalin used to identify risks.
That may be in part why it hasn't already happened.

I'd love Mr. D's perspective on what I suspect is true. Putin may have gotten a spectrum of reaction in the planning of the invasion of Ukraine. Some "yes men" Putin's surrounded himself with may have told Putin whatever it is they thought Putin wanted to hear:
Ukraine? A pushover! Easier than Crimea! We'll be enjoying our new territory before the weekend.

The impression I get from tea leaves, that those that cautioned Putin of a more realistic assessment were punished by being commanded to the battle front, and that most of them are already dead. How say you on that one Mr. D?
 
Honestly, I think anyone who dared oppose the war was just killed. Wasn't there a rash of high ranking politician deaths in Russia a while ago? Including that one girl whose father didn't get killed, unfortunately? People were blaming Ukraine, but I think most of the actual blame goes to them standing up to Putin.

Vic can, of course, feel free to correct me as my Russian sucks, and my Ukrainian is worse. :)
 
Z, your #45 has just more than doubled my knowledge on that aspect of the subject. I imagine I'm a victim of news displacement. All the startling headline grabbing about Trump's "secret" stash, the mid-terms, Hershel Walker's abortion, ... not much news about Russia.

Z, I'm puzzled, baffled. Mr. D & I have a disagreement about what the U.S. should have & could have done immediately after The Wall fell.
I think the way U.S. President GHWB allowed post Soviet Russia to languish set the stage for both Crimea and Ukraine.
Victor seems adamant that there wasn't much if anything that could be done. So I invented an example. It's in post #94

If I'm out of line here, I'd sincerely appreciate you reading me the riot act about it. Ordinarily I might not ask. But you may be one of the few unashamed of candor, a rare and valued quality for me.
"my Russian sucks" Z
nyet
 
Honestly, I don't think there was ever much hope for Russia. Now, when I say this, I say it as a member of an ethnic community of Jews who were regularly persecuted and even murdered by Russians (as does Victor who is both Ukrainian and Jewish). So perhaps I am not capable of the most favorable interpretation of Russia. But I think they were doomed to autocracy and oligarchy from the start. Strong men are in their psyche like "freedom" is in America's. So is empire. America did about all we could do - normalizing trade relationships and initiating soft power through hollywood and music and the like. Russians looked at the possibilities and collectively decided to go with a strong man dictatorship. And at least the last time I checked (which was admittedly before conscription started) Putin enjoyed huge favorability ratings in his home country, as did the war.
 
I'd love Mr. D's perspective on what I suspect is true. Putin may have gotten a spectrum of reaction in the planning of the invasion of Ukraine. Some "yes men" Putin's surrounded himself with may have told Putin whatever it is they thought Putin wanted to hear:
Ukraine? A pushover! Easier than Crimea! We'll be enjoying our new territory before the weekend.
That was the widespread initial assessment, as far as we can tell. Of course the course of the war introduced its corrections into those, but some were more willing than others to accept those corrections, and re-evaluate their views.

Putin isn't one of them, largely because for him backing down is not an option. He bet his crown on this war, and now his physical survival depends on its success -- its now-unachievable success. He is stuck.
 
There are only one set of "Nazis" involved here
I see your Azov and raise you Rogozin (director of Roscosmos, minister of this and that) and Prigozhin (head of Wagner PMC, the owner of second-largest private army in russia).

The difference?

In Ukraine, neonazis got 2% of vote at the last elections, and 0 seats in the parliament.

In russia, neonazis are among the national leadership.

All of this of course quite besides the fact that russia literally exhibits all the classic signs of a fascist state, and Ukraine does not:

Russian society is fascist​
✅ Aggressive nationalism​
✅ Military glorified​
✅ Violence glorified​
✅ Government controlled media​
✅ Religion in league with government​
✅ Fraudulent elections​
✅ Disdain for human rights​
✅ Corporate power supported​
✅ Thoroughly corrupt​
✅ Fuhrer who embodies the nation​
✅ Cult of victimhood​
✅ Resentment and irredentism​

Feel free to check out the list of definitions of fascism. Russia is fascist and Ukraine is a functional (albeit chaotic and corrupt) democracy.

P.S. Why am I not surprised that a genocide apologist like you would sing from the Kremlin hymnal?
 
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There are only one set of "Nazis" involved here

View attachment 77

View attachment 78View attachment 79


All fully debunked and disproven.

In fact, on YAP, johnny prompted me to look into this and turns out it's all 100% full scale lies and slaistering drivel.

IIRC, almost all Nazis were purged from the unit when they were integrated into the army, or that's what I read from multiple very trustworthy sources.

BTW, when were those images taken? Link please to images and when and where they were taken?


Tass.ru? Pravda.ru by any chance hyperlinked?

Do the brothers and sisters call the NazBols "friends" just like Jeremy Corbyn called Hamas "friends"?
 
It is true that nazis have been largely purged from Azov years ago; but to kremlin tankies this is a non-argument. Azov WAS neonazi in the past, and that's enough for them.

And frankly, the nazi issue there IS a real problem. "We haven't been nazis for 7 years now" is not a very strong point upon which to pivot your defense. It's a true point, but as a debate tactic, it puts you completely on the defensive and forces you to justify dealing with people who were nazis just a few years ago.

But the salient point is that nazis hold no power in Ukrainian society, and they hold key positions of power in russian society. Yes, nazis do exist in Ukraine, but they are powerless, marginalized, and have no political representation whatsoever; quite unlike russia where fascism is front and center.
 
What's the latest in Ukraine today?






Side point:

A lot of people keep saying it's Russian propaganda to say the Ukies blew up the bridge. I don't think they did blow up the bridge based on what I saw, but maybe I'm ignorant - but what would have been bad about blowing up the bridge if Ukies did do it?

I can't see why that would be a bad thing and would put Ukraine in the wrong. It would have been a good thing even if they had of done it anyway? Or is that logic stupid?
 
We still don't know if russia or Ukraine did it, and whether it was done by truck, or missile, or boat, or whatever.

But it's 100% a legitimate military target, given that much of the russian logistics for the southern front ran over that bridge, including trains full of tanks (videos of that are abundant).
 
What's the latest in Ukraine today?

what would have been bad about blowing up the bridge if Ukies did do it?
"All's fair in love & war."
"it's 100% a legitimate military target, given that much of the russian logistics for the southern front ran over that bridge, including trains full of tanks (videos of that are abundant)." D #54
See ?! I knew it.
 
All fully debunked and disproven.


excuse me?
Azoz and C14 arent Fascists? since when?

Fascist flags
hero worship of Stepan Bandera
attacks on Roma (gypsy) camps
fascist salutes

1665686235674.png
Zelensky awards Commander of the Right Sector Dmytro Kotsyubaylo "Hero of Ukraine" award


Sorry old fruit but if you quack like a duck and waddle like a duck you are probably a duck
 
excuse me?
You are not excused. Your genocide apologia and pro-kremlin propaganda are not excusable.

Bandera was not a nazi. In fact he was imprisoned by nazis in a concentration camp for years.

Being in Azov doesn't make one a nazi.

But Rogozin and Prigozhin and many other russian figures of power ARE nazi, and yet you are avoiding THAT topic like the plague.

Russia is a nazi state: they are a classic fascist state with a genocidal obsession over Ukraine, that's what makes them nazi. Nazism is basically fascism + murderous chauvinism.

Ukraine is a fully functioning (though corrupt) democracy with a jewish president, and the only country outside of Israel to have has jewish President and jewish Prime Minister at the same time (in 2019, Zelensky and Groysman).

But none of these facts matter to you. You have your vile kremlin agenda to push, right?
 
Bandera was not a nazi


No he is a national hero of Nazis, he just liked hanging around with Nazis whilst acting like a Nazi. (persecuting Jews exterminating Poles that sort of thing)


This from wiki normally I wouldnt use wiki for this but I refuse to waste time arguing that the earth is not round

Stepan Andriyovych Bandera (Ukrainian: Степа́н Андрі́йович Банде́ра, romanized: Stepán Andríyovych Bandéra, IPA: [steˈpɑn ɐnˈd⁽ʲ⁾r⁽ʲ⁾ijoʋɪt͡ʃ bɐnˈdɛrɐ]; Polish: Stepan Andrijowycz Bandera; 1 January 1909 – 15 October 1959) was a Ukrainian far-right leader[1][nb 1] of the radical, terrorist wing of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists

snip

Bandera collaborated with Nazi Germany at times during World War II.


snip

In late 1942, when Bandera was in a German concentration camp, his organization, the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, was involved in a massacre of Poles in Volhynia and, in early 1944, ethnic cleansing also spread to Eastern Galicia. It is estimated that more than 35,000 and up to 60,000 Poles, mostly women and children along with unarmed men, were killed during the spring and summer campaign of 1943 in Volhynia, and up to 133,000 if other regions, such as Eastern Galicia, are included

snip

Bandera held anti-semitic views.[87][nb 6] According to political scientist Alexander John Motyl, antisemitism was not a core part of Ukrainian nationalism in the way it was for Nazism, and the Soviet Union and Poland were considered to be the primary enemies of the OUN. However, Bandera and his men considered Jews to be a "problem" because they were believed to be involved in aiding the Soviets to take Ukrainian territory, as well as not being Ukrainian.


According to Grzegorz Rossoliński-Liebe "Bandera's worldview was shaped by numerous far-right values and concepts including ultranationalism, fascism, racism, and antisemitism; by fascination with violence; by the belief that only war could establish a Ukrainian state; and by hostility to democracy, communism, and socialism. Like other young Ukrainian nationalists, he combined extremism with religion and used religion to sacralize politics and violence."[76]

Historian John-Paul Himka writes that Bandera remained true to the fascist ideology to the end.[47]

Swedish-American historian Per Anders Rudling said that Bandera and his followers "advocated the selective breeding to create a 'pure' Ukrainian race[77] and that "the OUN shared the fascist attributes of anti-liberalism, anti-conservatism, and anti-communism, an armed party, totalitarianism, anti-Semitism, Führerprinzip, and adoption of fascist greetings. Its leaders eagerly emphasized to Hitler and Ribbentrop that they shared the Nazi Weltanschauung and a commitment to a fascist New Europe."[78][full citation needed]

American historian Timothy Snyder has described Bandera as a fascist.[79] Political scientist Andreas Umland characterized Bandera as a "Ukrainian ultranationalist", and also told Deutsche Welle that he was not a "nazi", noting Ukrainian nationalism then was "not a copy of Nazism".[32]

Historian David Marples described Bandera’s views as "not untypical of his generation", but as holding "an extreme political stance that rejected any form of cooperation with the rulers of Ukrainian territories: the Poles and the Soviet authorities". For Bandera, Russia was the chief adversary, but he also lacked tolerance for Poles and Jews. Marples also described Bandera as "neither an orator nor a theoretician" and wrote that he had minimal importance as a thinker.[3] Marples considered Rossolinski-Liebe to place too much importance on Bandera's views, writing that Rossolinski-Liebe struggled to find anything of note written by Bandera, and had assumed he was influenced by OUN publicist Dmytro Dontsov and OUN journals.[80]

Ukrainian historian Andrii Portnov writes that Bandera remained a proponent of authoritarian and violent politics until his death



so absolutely not a Nazi just a fascist
 
A lot of Eastern Europeans sided with the nazis at times during WWII because they saw Stalin as the greater evil. And I'm not sure they were wrong, especially if they were Ukrainians coming out of Holodomor right before the war. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and all that. Some of the general attitude was that if they could save themselves from Russia, America and Britain would come save them from Germany. They hoped to get rid of both evil empires in the war. That didn't happen, but it may have been worth fighting for.

Remember - Stalin killed 20 million people. Hitler killed about 11. Your education, assuming it primarily happened during or shortly after the Cold War, taught you that Hitler was the Big Bad. The worst Leader Ever. But eastern Europeans remember worse. We just didn't know about it yet.

 
so absolutely not a Nazi just a fascist
Nope. Neither a nazi nor a fascist. A NATIONALIST willing to work even with the devil himself if it allowed him to bring about the free Ukraine.

Bandera is a hero of national liberation in Ukraine who fought against both nazis and commies.

And if you think he did bad things (which he certainly did), wait till you find out what ANY OTHER hero of national liberation did. In respect to dealing out violence, he is completely in line with other national liberators, from Washington to Bolivar.

But you know what Bandera and his admirers today DON'T do?

They don't launch wars of genocidal aggression against other countries.
 
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