What to call this thread?

[sear]

3 minute read May 9, 20238:37 AM GMT-5

"We're being hounded" - French transgender sprinter decries Olympics ban​

By Noemie Olive

AIX-EN-PROVENCE, France, May 9 (Reuters) - French sprinter Halba Diouf feels she is being marginalised and hounded after her dream of participating at next year's Paris Olympics was shattered when World Athletics (WA) banned transgender women from elite female competitions.
Diouf had been training hard to improve her 200 metres time in the hope of running on home soil at the 2024 Games. But her ambitions were dashed in March when governing body WA banned transgender women who have gone through male puberty from competing in women's events, citing a "need to protect the female category."

https://www.reuters.com/sports/athl...der-sprinter-decries-olympics-ban-2023-05-09/

 

[Shiftless2]

Only problem is, they have no legitimate reason to do so - nothing but prejudice.

 

[sear]

Only problem is, they have no legitimate reason to do so - nothing but prejudice.

"The Devil's in the details."

If there's no difference, then why are so many athletic competitions already segregated by gender? "Nothing but prejudice?"

 

[Shiftless2]

Your statement is confusing sex and gender.

But not only is a transwoman a woman but the doctors and scientists who work for the IOC and NCAA agree that after a couple of years on hormones any advantage that comes from growing up male goes away.

In other words, trans athletes don't have any sort of intrinsic advantage. If they did, we'd see the podium completely dominated by trans athletes. After all the IOC has allowed trans athletes to compete since 2003 and the NCAA since 2010 so if that mythical advantage did exist we'd see any number of trans athletes on the podium. Instead - nada.

Fact is, in the 20 years since the IOC has allowed trans athletes to compete there have been some 71,000 Olympians but exactly two MtF trans athletes made it to the games. One came in dead last, the other 37th out of 42. If they had an advantage why didn't they easily win their events?

BTW, it's not just amateur sports - women's tennis (since 1975), the LPGA, and MMA come to mind and they haven't been dominated by trans athletes either.

So like I said - no logical reason, just prejudice.

 

[Shiftless2]

This man is awesome

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CsJwphptD-d/?fbclid=IwAR0e-vK9adpLbWLDOWXjWzXOTU8tuMDgiCrcZ_LL9bL3WKRQZCXqXqcY8P4

 

[sear]

The criteria of your discretion is selective.

"But not only is a transwoman a woman but ..." S2 #84

By a carefully selected criterion perhaps. The proof that it's more complicated than that is revealed in your own posted comment.

" the doctors and scientists who work for the IOC and NCAA agree that after a couple of years on hormones any advantage that comes from growing up male goes away." S2 #84

Which means before those years have elapsed "advantage" is still present.

"So like I said - no logical reason, just prejudice." S2 #84

I may not be able to refute it. You already have, as quoted above, literally years of residual advantage, potentially after which time the "transwoman" may have aged out of prime athletic physical capability.

Ref:

"Your statement is confusing sex and gender.
But not only is a transwoman a woman but the doctors and scientists who work for the IOC and NCAA agree that after a couple of years on hormones any advantage that comes from growing up male goes away.
In other words, trans athletes don't have any sort of intrinsic advantage. If they did, we'd see the podium completely dominated by trans athletes. After all the IOC has allowed trans athletes to compete since 2003 and the NCAA since 2010 so if that mythical advantage did exist we'd see any number of trans athletes on the podium. Instead - nada.
Fact is, in the 20 years since the IOC has allowed trans athletes to compete there have been some 71,000 Olympians but exactly two MtF trans athletes made it to the games. One came in dead last, the other 37th out of 42. If they had an advantage why didn't they easily win their events?
BTW, it's not just amateur sports - women's tennis (since 1975), the LPGA, and MMA come to mind and they haven't been dominated by trans athletes either.
So like I said - no logical reason, just prejudice." S2 #84

additional comment pending:

 

[sear]

addl -
In many sports / athletic competitions we already segregate the sexes, without much complaint.
An argumentative dismissal might include the suggestion "trans"competitors compete amongst themselves. That would preserve the tradition of segregation.

But I'm being more reasonable than that. Bruce Jenner is an obvious example.
- He was born male, and competed as a male. And after his competitive athletic career was over, he then obtained the "trans ...".

I understand. Some people (persons) want it all. But in this category of human enterprise, should they have it despite the appearance?

If a woman wants to be CEO of a $Billion $Dollar corporation, AND enjoy the blessings of raising a family, it can be done. It need not intrude on the rights of others.

 

[Shiftless2]

Which means before those years have elapsed "advantage" is still present.

And they're not allowed to compete until those years have elapsed.

 

[Shiftless2]

As in #72 here's another case of a girl defeating a boy (relatively easily at that)

Small but terrible. So proud of my daughter Gr8ness #gr8andm8yadventure for stepping up the challege. #iflexkids #jiujitsukids #coachmarco #iflexdoyou #pambansangcoach #littlemachine #filipinokids #filipinojiujitsuinaustralia | Marco Antonio Tamayo |

2.3M views, 42K likes, 119 comments, 6.1K shares, Facebook Reels from Marco Antonio Tamayo: Small but terrible. So proud of my daughter Gr8ness #gr8andm8yadventure for stepping up the challege....

www.facebook.com

Small but terrible

 

[sear]

"And they're not allowed to compete until those years have elapsed." S2 #88

In that case my opposition for that specific reason is diminished.

 

[Shiftless2]

Why not eliminated?

 

[Shiftless2]

Ron DeSantis Just Took Two Big Steps to Make Trans Lives Illegal​

Bills signed into law Wednesday will further restrict trans rights in his state, and there’s no telling how far the extremist politician will go
BY CHRIS GEIDNER

REPUBLICAN FLORIDA GOV. Ron DeSantis on Wednesday signed several bills into law that will criminalize multiple aspects of being transgender, part of a broader attack aimed at making it at best difficult — and at worst illegal — to be a trans person in Florida.

Although inaccurately framed as being bills whose purpose is to “let kids be kids,” we must closely examine these new laws to understand the full scope of DeSantis’s anti-LGBTQ efforts — and the fact that he has no clear end in sight.

In a year with more than 50 anti-LGBTQ bills already having been passed into law across the country, according to the ACLU’s legislative tracker, DeSantis and Florida’s Republican lawmakers are taking things much further.

This isn’t about disagreeing on issues. We aren’t all expected to think the same things or make the same decisions about how to live our lives or how to raise our children. This is about his using the law to take away fundamental choices that we all should be free to make for ourselves. And in the latest attacks, DeSantis and his ilk are staking out an even more extremist position — criminalizing certain choices, turning fundamental freedoms into potential prison sentences.

Two extreme anti-trans bills, both of which I covered at my Law Dork newsletter, were among the five bills signed into law by DeSantis on Wednesday — one addressing gender-affirming medical care and the other addressing bathroom use. Both have provisions that affect adults and have nothing to do with kids.

The first — S.B. 254 — takes several steps to prevent Florida’s minors from receiving any gender-affirming medical care anywhere. The law bans such care in the state, but it also gives emergency jurisdiction to courts to stop a child from leaving the state to receive gender-affirming medical care. Trying to get a child gender-affirming medical care is the only specific action, other than ...

Ron DeSantis Just Took Two Big Steps to Make Trans Lives Illegal

Bills signed into law Wednesday will further restrict trans rights in his state, and there’s no telling how far the extremist politician will go

www.rollingstone.com

 

[sear]

I haven't "slept on it", a metaphor (or not) for re-thinking it through.
It would constitute a major shift, & as a cautious person I prefer to look before I leap.

Science is the criterion of truth in our culture. BUT !!
There are pitfalls. Imposters for one. Pseudo-science is a risk.
Some topics more complex than others. And this level of human biology, which involves advanced biochemistry (hormones etc), musculature, etc.

When I was a boy I was assured bumblebees can't fly. I suspect what the pseudo-scientists were hinting at (as we know bumblebees fly) is bumblebees can't soar.
Bio-chem? When I was a boy it was a popular cliche', "as safe as Aspirin".
That was before we learned Aspirin is blamed for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans each year.

My HS algebra teacher told the class tobacco was at one time regarded as healthful. The detail I recall is he said it slows down the heart.
Lots of flip-flopping on beverage ethanol. Some say it's good. Some say no.

For me to accept the premise, I'd first need to read the methodology of the studies, and what athletic performance parameters were sampled (and thus, which were not).

MEANING:
If I knew as a metaphysical certitude such altered competitors had no competitive advantage, I'd withdraw my objection for that basis of objection.
But considering that these competitors, both those competing as born, & those not) may devote many years, possibly over a decade to such training & competition, I don't think it's unreasonable to both offer them
a level playing field, and the appearance of a level playing field. If there were widespread objection I would not ignore it.

Every once in a while I read an account of a marathon runner (Boston or NYC for example) skipping a portion of the 26 mile run, by taking the subway, or a cab.
It's not that they all do it. It's that every once in a while a competitor tries to "game the system". That's also a factor in my perception.

" law that will criminalize multiple aspects of being transgender" #92

I'd be amused, or perhaps horrified to know how DeSantis would have such statute enforced. Trans police scurrying about with scissors? You think DeSantis is trying to make the Taliban or ISIL blush?

 

[Shiftless2]

They hate her [trans] son more than they love their families.

https://imgur.com/GXTH8Fw

https://imgur.com/N7VA3S3

This amazing woman and a few of her colleagues have held the Nebraska legislature at a standstill for the whole session because they will not drop a bill targeting trans children. They've been very clear: the legislature can move on to other business at any time, but as long as they want to harm her son she will not let one piece of legislation clear. They hate her son more than they love their families.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1659294919784034307

 

[sear]

I'm old enough to not recognize today's Republican party.

I gather there's rare precedent for and individual slowly going insane. Unibomber Ted Kaczynski comes to mind, a productive participant in society who gradually dropped out of society to devote time to according to WaPo:
Unabomber struck at least 16 times, killing three people and injuring 23.

But this Republican onslaught of madness isn't just one wayward intellect. It's my countrymen, voters by the millions finding champions like Trump, DeSantis, and MTG.

I don't understand it.

ref:
"There is no law that says we have to go to work every day and follow our employer's orders. Legally there is nothing to prevent us from going to live in the wild like primitive people or from going into business for ourselves. But in practice there is very little wild country left, and there is room in the economy for only a limited number of small business owners. Hence most of us can survive only as someone else's employee." Excerpt from Unibomb Manifesto: author convict Theodore Kaczynski; sentenced to Lifetime imprisonment without possibility of parole

 

[Shiftless2]

... there is room in the economy for only a limited number of small business owners.

Nearly half of all U.S. employees are employed by a small business. Yet, despite the fact that over 80% of small businesses have no employees, small businesses employ 61.7 million workers. That's 46.4% of all US employees —a large percentage of employees when less than 20% of small businesses even have employees at all ...

Small Business Statistics Of 2023

Big tech companies and large corporations tend to steal the spotlight, however, small businesses are the backbone of the American economy. According to recent data, not only are the majority of jobs in the U.S. created by small businesses, but they are also a major source of innovation, economic gro

www.forbes.com

 

[sear]

sear said Kaczynski said:
" ... there is room in the economy for only a limited number of small business owners." from S2 #96

Ted Kaczynski / American domestic terrorist (born 1942)
Theodore John Kaczynski (born May 22, 1942), also known as the Unabomber, is an American domestic terrorist and former mathematics professor. He was a mathematics prodigy, but abandoned his academic career in 1969 to pursue a more primitive life. Between 1978 and 1995, Kaczynski killed three people and injured 23 others ... Wikipedia

The quotation we've posted presented an interesting First Amendment issue to law enforcement. The Unibomber (University Bomber) authored a manifesto from which the posted excerpt was taken. Government authorities debated whether to publish it, but decided to do so hoping someone would recognize the author by reading it.
Kaczynski's brother recognized his brother as the author, but did not disclose the author's identity until authorities agreed to remove capital punishment from the penalty options.

S2 #96
I am not, and Kaczynski may not question the percentage, the ratio. Instead Kaczynski was trying to make a broader socio-financial point. We can't all be self-employed. I think he says it pretty well.

"There is no law that says we have to go to work every day and follow our employer's orders. Legally there is nothing to prevent us from going to live in the wild like primitive people or from going into business for ourselves. But in practice there is very little wild country left, and there is room in the economy for only a limited number of small business owners. Hence most of us can survive only as someone else's employee." Excerpt from Unibomb Manifesto: author convict Theodore Kaczynski; sentenced to Lifetime imprisonment without possibility of parole

Paraphrasing to clarify the Unibomber's position, while self-employment is an option, there are a few within the $earning population that may have extraordinary entrepreneurial talent / potential, Bill Gates, Taylor Swift, Jeff Bezos. For many if not most others the self-employment market is saturated.

In an aboriginal, hunter-gatherer society that's not the case. But society and technology have progressed to the point "... in practice there is very little wild country left, and there is room in the economy for only a limited number of small business owners."

I'm not defending this Unibomber thesis. I see no personal failing in understanding this dangerous criminal's intended point. We needn't subscribe to it to understand it. And understanding it may possibly provide insight into how to suppress similar crime sprees.

 

[Shiftless2]

Should we tell him?

 

[sear]

"A straight man who regularly has sex with other men ..." #98

"Straight" & "gay" are slang synonyms for heterosexual and homosexual.

Should we tell him?

I suspect the above quoted premise is based on denial.
Whether or not it is evil, an "abomination" as some Biblical translations assert, that's a separate issue.

"A straight man who regularly has sex with other men ..." #98

I believe the formal term is "bisexual".

And if "gay" is a euphemism for (male) homosexual, American Heritage® Dictionary can settle the matter.

ho·mo·sex·u·al (hō′mə-sĕksh-əl, -mō-) adj. Of, relating to, or having a sexual orientation to persons of the same sex. n. A homosexual person; a gay man or a lesbian. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition copyright ©2022 by HarperCollins Publishers. All rights reserved.

opinion:
In a more perfect world this would be not merely a moot issue, but in some cases inconsequential (exceptions such as, a considerate co-worker introducing two gays, impromptu match-making).
But in our world gone mad minorities including homosexuals have been demonized, and persecuted.
In that context I consider the apparent denial expressed in #98 to be regrettable, but understandable, & subjectively justifiable. quod alias non fuit licitum, necessitas licitum facit: What otherwise was not lawful, necessity makes lawful.
Dark-skinned citizens don't have the luxury of denying their minority status. Homosexuals may. For the latter it's a matter of choice. I sympathize with them, forced by antagonistic social adversity to make that choice. Worth mentioning, gay men with the spine to stay out of the closet may be more man than their homophobic persecutors. Savor the irony.

 

[Shiftless2]

For the record:

Anti trans policies don't just harm trans children – they harm ALL children.

Exhibit #4,376:

"Patients who were receiving gender-affirming care at Dell Children’s are scrambling to find new providers, with many looking outside Texas. But gender-affirming care was only a small part of what this clinic provided, patients say. The doctors were renowned for their treatment of eating disorders and mental health issues, which are skyrocketing among adolescents. They also treated a wide range of menstrual disorders and helped families like Hamand’s navigate adolescence for young people with developmental disabilities.
All those families are now desperately looking for new doctors for their vulnerable children."

After doctors left Dell Children’s adolescent clinic, Austin teens and their families are scrambling to find specialty care

The adolescent clinic treated eating disorders and menstrual complications. It also offered gender-affirming care — which is still legal for now but triggered an investigation by Attorney General Ken Paxton.

www.texastribune.org