What to call this thread?

[sear]

note:
The following is not definitive proof of the validity of either side of the controversy.
But its source, Caitlyn Jenner does authenticate the reality that the perspective is not coming from a person bigoted against transgender.

By and large the Solomon inspired splitting the baby is a bad idea. In this case, an individual may wish to prioritize. What's more important to them, athletic competition, or gender transition?

Former Olympian Caitlyn Jenner backs New York county's ban on transgender female athletes​

PHILIP MARCELO
Updated Mon, March 18, 2024 at 11:34 PM EDT

Transgender Athletes Ban New York Caitlyn Jenner​

Caitlyn Jenner speaks at a press conference, Monday, March 18, 2024, in Mineola, N.Y. The former Olympic gold medalist threw her support behind a local New York official’s order banning female sports teams with transgender athletes from using county-owned facilities. (AP Photo/Stefan Jeremiah)
ASSOCIATED PRESS
MINEOLA, N.Y. (AP) — Olympic gold medalist Caitlyn Jenner on Monday said she supported a local New York official’s order banning female sports teams with transgender athletes from using county-owned facilities.
The ban applies to over 100 athletic facilities in New York City's Long Island suburbs. Speaking alongside Nassau County Executive Bruce Blakeman at his office in Mineola, Jenner said allowing transgender athletes like herself to compete against other women will “ruin women’s sports” for years to come.
“Let’s stop it now while we can,” said the reality television star, who came out as a transgender woman in 2015.

The LGBT Network, a Long Island-based advocacy group, called Jenner’s comments a “baffling contradiction” to her own identity as a transgender woman that is “not only hypocritical but also harmful" to the LGBTQ community.
“It is disheartening to witness someone who has experienced the challenges of being marginalized actively contribute to the oppression of others within the same community,” David Kilmnick, the group’s president, said in a statement. “Such actions only serve to amplify the voices of intolerance and detract from the collective efforts towards a more inclusive society."

https://news.yahoo.com/former-olympian-caitlyn-jenner-backs-193051923.html

 

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If only she was the least bit consistent

Trans golfer fighting to join LPGA ‘totally different’ than Lia Thomas: Caitlyn Jenner

“I’ve been very consistent with how I’ve tried to approach these transgender athletes. It really depends on the sport. Every sport is different,” Jenner said. “Obviously, we saw w…

nypost.com

Caitlyn Jenner pleads with transgender golfer to stop playing in women's events

Hailey Davidson won the NXXT Women's Classic golf tournament and dreams of reaching the LPGA Tour but former USA Olympian Caitlyn Jenner has asked her to put a halt to her career

www.themirror.com

And in 2016 Caitlyn herself entered a women's event - it wasn't until the anti-trans movement became a rally cry for the GOP that she changed her position

Caitlyn Jenner to play in ANA Inspiration Pro-Am women's golf tournament

Caitlyn Jenner will tee off Wednesday morning at Mission Hills Country Club.

www.usatoday.com

 

[sear]

"If only she was the least bit consistent" S2 #282

Bruce screens applicants to compete in bantam weight competition. The final 2 applicants are 116 lb Gerty, and 287 lb Gloria.
Bruce authorizes Gerty to compete, and rejects Gloria's application to the same competition. The outcomes are conspicuously opposite. One yes. The other no.

Is this not "the least bit consistent"?

Seems to me if transgender competitors wish to compete in grand-master chess tournaments, they should have the unfettered right to do so, because even residual testosterone physical advantage if any is immaterial in chess.
But in competitions wherein their former male (testosterone) may impart advantage, or the potential appearance of advantage, is it fair to the non-trans competitors?

Perhaps we can consider this an unresolved controversy.
The reason Jenner's opinion is notable is that we can rule out anti-trans bigotry. That in turn lends more credibility to the position.

Again, not definitive perhaps, but an opinion worth including in the broader evaluation.

ref:
Bantamweight is a weight class in combat sports and weightlifting. For boxing, the range is above 115 lb (52.2 kg) and up to 118 lb (53.5 kg). In kickboxing, a bantamweight fighter generally weighs between 53 and 55 kilograms (117 and 121 lb). In MMA, bantamweight is 126–135 lb (57.2–61.2 kg).
The name for the class is derived from bantam chickens. Brazilian jiu-jitsu has an equivalent Rooster weight.
More from Wikipedia

 

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... in competitions wherein their former male (testosterone) may impart advantage, or the potential appearance of advantage, is it fair to the non-trans competitors?

If that really were an issue, trans athletes would have completely dominated their respective sports by now. After all, the IOC and NCAA have both allowed trans athletes to compete for some years (the IOC since 2003 and the NCAA since 2010). But instead, nothing.

While I completely disagree with her position, it might be understandable if she'd come in second and had only been beaten by the trans athlete. But since other cisgender swimmers beat her there is no logic to her suit.

 

[sear]

"If that really were an issue, trans athletes would have completely dominated their respective sports ..." S2 #284

Not necessarily.
a) I'm not aware Caitlin asserted there was absolute, overwhelming advantage.
b) In the example/s you cite, the competition may have been naturally superior. Thus
c) When the competitors skill levels are closer to parity,

So the argument you seem to be advancing here is if it doesn't impart overwhelming advantage, it's a non-issue. Translation, it's a non-issue to you. BUT ! Are you born a biological female, & engaged in professional sport competition? Against born males that now qualify as female?
Jenner's counter seems to be, there may be no difference, but if there is a difference, even a small one, it may be decisive.

It's an opinion.
I think it's worth considering because it seems we may have some confidence it's not motivated by anti-trans bigotry.

"While I completely disagree with her position, it might be understandable if she'd come in second and had only been beaten by the trans athlete. But since other cisgender swimmers beat her there is no logic to her suit." S2 #284

Psychologist Joy Browne calls this an "all or nothing" game. It looks like "bias-confirmation" to me.
I think your argument is false, would be true if the difference were always overwhelming.

 

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The doctors and scientists who work for the IOC and NCAA agree that after a period of times on hormones any advantage resulting from having been "born male" disappears.

And if the issue really had anything to do with genetic advantages Michael Phelps would have been banned from competition.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html

It's worth noting that Ms Semenya is not the only female athlete who has been banned because of naturally high hormone levels (is it just a coincidence that all of them are black).

And don't forget that it's not that long ago that female athletes were complaining about black women competing arguing that they had unfair natural advantages.

 

[sear]

"The doctors and scientists who work for the IOC and NCAA agree that after a period of times on hormones any advantage resulting from having been "born male" disappears." S2 #286

What specific criteria were analyzed to evaluate this "advantage"?



Seems to me males tend to be taller, perhaps larger than females.
Do hormones shrink the skeleton?

If at the beginning of hormone treatment a trend begins, reducing a quantifiable parameter, does that parameter reduce to zero?
Even if so, is that proof that parameter fully addresses the underlying dimorphism? Or residual advantage not measurable biochemically, yet observable in athletic competition. Caitlyn isn't against trans. She's even-minded about both.

The doctors and scientists who work for the IOC and NCAA

What do the female competitors say? I'm not suggesting their opinion would be unanimous, and if it is it must be meticulously indulged.
Conversely I wouldn't prejudicially assume their perspective is imbecilic and disregarding it mandatory, even if it is.
Instead I'm suggesting in this matter it's not imprudent to consider their views.

And if their unanimous opinion is no female should be excluded, I'd suppose such approach can be taken, until reason appears to do otherwise.

Personally I have virtually no interest. I was as impressed by Nadia Komenich as I am by Simone Biles. My spectator sports are NHL & NFL.
My personal interest is the human rights angle. And that includes both those with hormone therapy past or present, and those not.

But I would suggest, not as a "gotcha", but as a cyber-friend, a mathemagician knows

"If that really were an issue, trans athletes would have completely dominated" #284

is inaccurate.
I have no doubt of your noble commitment to social victims in general, and these among the most discriminated against as prominent.
But as you know, having an advantage need not necessarily dictate an absolute win in all cases. Yet it could still impart a decisive if not determinative influence in competitions that are close, and in some cases might make a winner of the one that would otherwise have lost.

 

[sear]

Part I

You are prohibited from using or uploading content you accessed through this website into external applications, bots, software, or websites, including those using artificial intelligence technologies and infrastructure, including deep learning, machine learning and large language models and generative AI.

https://www.auajournals.org/doi/10.1097/JU.0000000000001971.20

Not according to the fair use doctrine I'm not.
If you want it kept secret, why put it in the web?
And if you want the publicity, you can just pay the standard rate.

You have access Journal of Urology Trauma/Reconstruction/Diversion: External Genitalia Reconstruction and Urotrauma (including transgender surgery) I (MP04)1 Sep 2021

MP04-20 RATES OF PSYCHIATRIC EMERGENCIES BEFORE AND AFTER GENDER AFFIRMING SURGERY​

• 

INTRODUCTION AND OBJECTIVE:
Despites rates of comorbid psychologic illness in cases of gender dysphoria being estimated to be 70% greater than the general population, there is a dearth of literature concerning this topic. In this study we aimed to assess rates of psychiatric emergencies before and after gender affirming surgery in a large population-based cohort.

METHODS:​

All persons undergoing feminizing (vaginoplasty) and masculinizing (metoidioplasty/ phalloplasty) genital gender affirming surgery were identified in California from 2012-2018 from the Office of Statewide Health Planning and Development datasets using appropriate ICD-9/10 codes. All emergency room and inpatient psychiatric encounters were identified (noting those involving suicide attempts). Rates of these encounters were calculated before and after gender affirming surgery (using date of first operation if staged). On average, patients had a balanced two years of observation before and after their surgery.

RESULTS:​

Overall, 869 and 357 patients were identified undergoing vaginoplasty and phalloplasty with 193 (22.2%) and 74 (20.7%) having at least one psychiatric encounter (Table 1). Although the overall proportion of those experiencing a psychiatric encounter was similar between the vaginoplasty and phalloplasty groups, suicide attempts were more common in the vaginoplasty group (4.4% vs. 1.7%, p=0.033). The rate of a psychiatric encounter occurring after surgery if an episode prior surgery occurred was 33.9% and 26.5% for the vaginoplasty and phalloplasty groups. The overall rates of suicide attempts doubled (3.3 vs 1.5%, p=0.017) after vaginoplasty (effect not observed after phalloplasty).

CONCLUSIONS:
Rates of psychiatric emergencies are high both before and after gender affirming surgery. Although both the phalloplasty and vaginoplasty patients have similar overall rates of psychiatric encounters, suicide attempts are more common in the later. In fact, our observed rate of suicide attempts in the phalloplasty group is actually similar to the general population, while the vaginoplasty group's rate is more than double that of the general population. Patients undergoing GAS with a history of prior psychiatric emergences or feminizing transition are at higher risk and should be counseled appropriately.

Part II pending:

 

[sear]

Part II
"Post hoc ergo propter hoc" is a logical fallacy. It's a mistake to believe surgery "causes" suicide. I suspect, in our gender-alarmist society, we make a point of identifying sex by title: Mr. Jones, Mrs. Smith. Perhaps also noted, because in our culture it's the man that's supposed to approach the woman when matrimony is a consideration, the man's title doesn't reveal his marital status. SHE doesn't need to know. But HE can determine that by her title, Miss, or Mrs.
That's culture, not biology.
It's even worse in France, gender accompanies neuter objects: "le tableau" - masculine: the table. "La porte" - feminine: the door.

Point being it's a grind even for those whose body & mind are in accord. The additional complications of having to deal with a mismatch, compounded by taunting sadists can understandably further complicate life.

I have both fraternal and maternal family history of broken hips, several hip replacements. I've opted for diet & exercise instead of surgery. Since February I've walked over 100 miles, 4 miles ~every other day. I try to complete the 4 miles, hilly terrain in under one hour, a brisk walk.

I can't accurately guess what I'd do if what's above my neck didn't match what's below. I'm not suggesting there are any easy answers, but:

when I make a major decision I try to insure I'm considering every possible option. That way I'm less likely to overlook the best option.

I've seen women for example whose hair is cut short, and their attire more masculine. Splendid.

I have little useful to offer. Life is tough. Even $rich people commit suicide. My best advice? Don't drink society's koolaid. Everybody wants to either be, or meet Prints Charming. He's HIV, drinks heavily, and has a serious gambling problem.

 

[sear]

a) The Headline

Female athlete injured by transgender player slams Dem lawmakers who dismissed dangers​

Rep. Jerry Nadler claimed that 'men do not compete in women sports' in House committee markup​

By Jamie Joseph Fox News / Published March 22, 2024

Female athlete injured by transgender player slams Dem lawmakers who dismissed dangers

Former high-school volleyball player Payton McNabb, who was injured by a transgender woman during a sports match in 2022, torches Dem lawmakers who claimed trans women cause no harm in women's sports.

www.foxnews.com

b) The reality behind the headline:
Premised on the validity of the above headline, a transgender player was involved in an injury to another player. How many other similar events have occurred? Three? Four?

In the NFL, or NHL, there may be 3 or 4 injuries per game, from naturally gendered competitors.

Clearly on that basis, the transgender caused injuries all told barely amount to a rounding error of the other sport injuries.

 

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New York can take legal action against county's ban on female transgender athletes, judge says​

New York state officials may continue to take legal action against a county outside New York City that has banned transgender players from women’s and girls teams, a judge ruled Thursday.

U.S. District Court Judge Nusrat Choudhury denied Nassau County's request for a temporary restraining order against state Attorney General Letitia James, saying the Long Island county “falls far short of meeting the high bar for securing the extraordinary relief."

Among other things, Choudhury said the county failed to “demonstrate irreparable harm,” which she said was a “critical prerequisite” for such an order.

The ruling, however, doesn’t address ...

CONTINUED

 

[sear]

My apology in advance if I'm obscuring or missing a more important point:

"New York can take legal action against county's ban on female transgender athletes, judge says" #291​

As I understand it:
The pseudo-"heroic" champions of discrimination exploit / abuse their power and authority of public office to advance their personal bigotry, and win or lose the $tax $payer gets stuck with the $bill.
And why do I have to pay for this exactly?

 

[Shiftless2]

 

[sear]

#293

This seems to be a lucid, articulate summation.
The problem is it entrains us into the fray.

The problem with that is the fray obscures a more fundamental reality. It's nobody's business.

The problem I have with it is the gender-differentiated English language, sir & m'am for obvious example.
So on the rare occasions when I encounter a person with ambiguous gender identity, it becomes a challenge to use the ham-handed tool we call "the English language" without giving offense.

Over the telephone it can be as bad, or worse.

None the less #293 deserves for constructive, eloquent insight, advancing the cause of the lesson we each should have learned in kindergarten.

1. Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you." Matthew 7:1-2

It's called "karma". Get over it.

 

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His trans daughter was suspended for using the girls’ bathroom. A father then realised his prejudice​

Story by Heather Hollingsworth

Before his transgender daughter was suspended after using the girls’ bathroom at her Missouri high school. Before the bullying and the suicide attempts. Before she dropped out. Before all that, Dusty Farr was — in his own words — “a full-on bigot.”

By which he meant that he was eager to steer clear of anyone LGBTQ+.

Now, though, after everything, he says he wouldn’t much care if his 16-year-old daughter — and he proudly calls her that — told him she was an alien. Because she is alive.

“When it was my child, it just flipped a switch. And it was like ....

CONTINUED

 

[sear]

LGBTQ+. #295

Not sure what to make of this.
It seems unlikely that another minority whether Black, Italian, or Asian parent would suddenly -discover- the heritage of their own child, and simultaneously at that moment shed their prejudice.
Is that what sets LGBTQ+ apart here? It can go unrecognized, perhaps potentially until puberty, or beyond?

Bigotry might seem a random pointless personality defect.
But it may go deeper than that.
There seem to be both attraction, and avoidance instincts in human attitude.

Westermarck effect: individuals who spend large amounts of time with each other under the age of six, raised together, regardless of relationship,tend to become desensitized to each other, and they will not generally develop sexual attraction to each other later in life.
This idea is sometimes referred to as “reverse imprinting,” and it is named for Edvard Westermarck, a Finnish sociologist.

Bottom line, there's more to #295 than a vanilla human interest happy ending. There's a sinister loose end.

 

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[sear]

#297

That's really a thing.
The U.S. War in Vietnam wasn't lost in Southeast Asia. It was lost on Main Street U.S.A.
Protesters said:
- We can be conscripted at age 18 to fight in a War we vehemently oppose, but can't vote against that War until we're 21. SO !
Nixon suspended the draft, and lowered the voting age to 18.

BUT !!

Considerations for "trans" healthcare for the young include puberty, when the human body develops secondary sexual characteristics including facial hair for men, protuberant breasts for women.
Subjectively it's better to preempt such characteristics than to try to undo them.

 

[Shiftless2]

Considerations for "trans" healthcare for the young include puberty, when the human body develops secondary sexual characteristics including facial hair for men, protuberant breasts for women.
Subjectively it's better to preempt such characteristics than to try to undo them.

True - refusing to issue puberty blockers is an irrevocable decision - the end result is a boy with breast and a period or a girl with facial hair, deep voice, and Adams Apple, and so forth

 

[sear]

#299

We can objectively understand why the meddlers are wrong here. BUT ! What is the meddler's fig leaf? They're irreversibly interfering in the lives of strangers for the compensatory benefit of ... ?
Anyone?