Russia Targets An Empty German Consulate in Kiev - Latest Reports (Edit)

[sear]

Except that he wasnt in Afghanistan and even if he had been there was no legal process to extradite him to the US.

That differs from my understanding of the UBL timeline. My corroborated sources indicate:
UBL was at Tora Bora, and that he evaded U.S. capture by arrangement with Tora Bora perimeter mercenary security. No? If not that, what?

Extradition surely an issue. But iirc the U.S. didn't officially recognize Taliban de jure sovereign legitimacy. Instead the Taliban were regarded as religious thugs.

Should the U.S. have allowed this "most wanted" criminal safe refuge?

"Question, when the US refused to extradite Brennan would Britain have been justified in bombing Washington?
(bear in mind that unlike ObL Brennan was convicted of terrorism)" m #140

I was not party to either negotiation. I'm not justifying Brennan.

And in some regard, IF Brennan were being held in Washington, perhaps so. And while I generally oppose double-standards it seems a mistake to conflate the unelected Taliban with the United States federal government.

 

[mark mywords]

And in some regard, IF Brennan were being held in Washington, perhaps so

He was in Texas but Washington is the capital, although it would make nore sense to have bombed New York and Boston (which is where most of his support was)

 

[sear]

As you know (I sense your #142 is akin to a quiz).
The reality is, extradition can occasionally create international tensions. Not clear to me a military bombing campaign, an unambiguous act of war, would be a net problem solver, or rather be substantially more a problem creator. I understand you're attempting to conflate UBL with Brennan. If you think it through I believe you'll find it's not a practical comparison in the sense you attempt it here, and thus the error of the comparison.

Pick your example. Was President Carter wrong to have attempted to free the U.S. hostages held in Iran?

Is Russia wrong to hold U.S. basketballer Brittney Griner for drug violation?
Do you really think she's being held because of the outrage of her "criminal" misconduct? Or do you acknowledge she's being used as a pawn, a bargaining chip between Putin and the U.S.?

If there's a silver lining in this grey cloud I'd hope it is that it shines a painfully illuminating spotlight on the disgrace of hypocrisy on the U.S. Drug War.

 

[mark mywords]

Pick your example. Was President Carter wrong to have attempted to free the U.S. hostages held in Iran

the "Iranian HOSTAGES" were not tried and convicted of any crime ( the clue is in the name) and so are a totally separate issue

Is Russia wrong to hold U.S. basketballer Brittney Griner for drug violation?

She broke the law
she admitted breaking the law (guilty plea)
you can criticise the length of sentence but given some of the sentences handed down by American courts for fairly minor drug offences that might be a bit Matthew 7:5

My personal rule is "dont go to any country where you dont understand the laws AND trust the judicial system"

 

[sear]

She broke the law
you can criticise the length of sentence but ...

The legal principle of proportionality has been with us since the ancients. "Let the punishment fit the crime". There may be a range, perhaps $100 per gram or so. What is the unit of mass for each year of her sentence?
And at what point can it legitimately be considered excessive by accepted international standards?

Point being my opinion is Grinder is being used as a pawn. tsk tsk tsk Shame on the Ruskies.

 

[mark mywords]

The legal principle of proportionality has been with us since the ancients. "Let the punishment fit the crime". There may be a range, perhaps $100 per gram or so

Whilst I whole hearted agree with proportionality your courts and most of your country dont

She got 12 years for $31 of pot. Years after her parole, she was jailed for the unpaid court fees​

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/09/12/patricia-spottedcrow-marijuana-year-sentence/

A man who was sentenced to life in prison for selling $30 of marijuana will be freed​

A man who was sentenced to life in prison for selling $30 of marijuana will be freed | CNN

A military veteran serving a life sentence for selling less than $30 worth of marijuana will soon be released from prison, his attorney said.

edition.cnn.com

Lee Carroll Brooker, a 75-year-old disabled veteran, is sentenced to die in prison thanks to a mandatory sentence involving marijuana.
(In Mississippi, 30 grams — barely one ounce — is enough to send someone to prison for the rest of his or her life, with no chance of release)

This man is sentenced to die in prison over marijuana

The Supreme Court won't even hear his appeal.

www.vox.com

Seven Years Behind Bars for Two Joints​

Seven Years Behind Bars for Two Joints — And Now He’s Free

Bernard Noble, whose case became a symbol of harsh drug laws, walks out of a Louisiana prison.

www.themarshallproject.org

AND its not just drugs.........


A man in New Orleans faces a possible 20 years to life in prison for allegedly stealing about $30 worth of candy bars

New Orleans Man Faces 20 Years To Life For Candy Bar Theft

A man in New Orleans faces a possible 20 years to life in prison for allegedly stealing about $30 worth of candy bars. NPR's Ari Shapiro talks to John Simerman of The New Orleans Advocate.

www.npr.org

A 70-year-old Jackson Township man is facing seven years in prison after he allegedly shoplifted a $2.19 candy bar

Flaw in the system? Why 70-year-old is facing 7 years in prison for alleged candy bar theft

A 70-year-old Jackson Township man faces up to seven years in prison for allegedly shoplifting a $2.19 candy bar\u00a0— and a criminal justice expert\u00a0says the case highlights flaws in Pennsylvania's criminal justice system.

eu.yorkdispatch.com

A Texas prosecutor is defending his aggressive handling of the case against a man who was sentenced by a jury to 16 years in prison for stealing a $1 Snickers candy bar from a grocery.

Texas candy-bar thief gets 16 years

A Texas prosecutor is defending his aggressive handling of the case against a man who was sentenced by a jury to 16 years in prison for stealing a $1...

www.upi.com

So, you still want to talk about proportionality?

 

[sear]

So, you still want to talk about proportionality?

I'm not sure it needs Lincoln - Douglass style debate. But I think the principle applies. Please bear in mind, rightly or wrongly both the U.S. and Russia were considered "super-powers".
The Soviets waged de facto war against their people in the form of totalitarianism. The U.S. federal government has been waging what it calls the Drug War for generations. Similar consequences as you've noted.
It ought not surprise you that I don't endorse either of these forms of martial oppression. And though you may not have precisely made the point it may be so that the United States' own Drug War record as you've well cited may limit the State Department's ability to repatriate Griner.
I'd tried earlier to suggest, the potential silver lining here is that when Uncle Sam sees how ugly this looks in Russia, the realization may strike: omg, we're doing that too.

"I am announcing a pardon of all prior Federal offenses of simple possession of marijuana. I have directed the Attorney General to develop an administrative process for the issuance of certificates of pardon to eligible individuals." U.S. President Biden [D-DE]
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...ent-from-president-biden-on-marijuana-reform/

That's a long way from Drug War Appomattox. But it is at very least an acknowledgment that the drug, if it can be called that, that Griner was found with is demonized. I don't recall the details of Griner's possession. She's a world-class athlete. She had CBD oil? Does that even have psychotropic potential? I thought it was a topical treatment for muscle ache.
Whether it's considered natural, or pharmaceutical I don't know, but can imagine it doesn't matter, in Russia.

 

[mark mywords]

. Please bear in mind, rightly or wrongly both the U.S. and Russia were considered "super-powers".

Also this year -

British man jailed for 25 years in Dubai for cannabis vape oil 'was beaten by police for five days and tasered to make him sign a confession', friend claims​

Brit jailed for 25 YEARS in Dubai over cannabis oil 'was beaten'

Alfie Cain claimed Billy Hood, 24, who was jailed for 25 years after vape liquid containing cannabis oil was found in his car in Dubai, told him he was beaten while at Al-Barsha prison by police officers.

www.dailymail.co.uk

One man from Switzerland has been jailed because they found three poppy seeds on his clothing from a bread roll that he ate in Heathrow.
British citizen sentenced to four years in prison in Dubai after custom officials found a spec of marijuana smaller than a grain of sugar, stuck to one of his shoes

Dubai Jails British Man with Bit of Marijuana on Shoe

Scott Simon notes the plight of a British citizen who has been sentenced to four years in prison in Dubai for having a microscopic amount of marijuana on the bottom of his shoe.

www.npr.org

makes 9 years for having CDB vape oil seem quite reasonable!

It ought not surprise you that I don't endorse either of these forms of martial oppression. And though you may not have precisely made the point it may be so that the United States' own Drug War record as you've well cited may limit the State Department's ability to repatriate Griner.

Sorry she is definitely indisputably guilty why would you want to have her repatriated, so you have have the pleasure of having your tax dollars house the criminal rather than have Russia pay for it?

She's a world-class athlete. She had CBD oil?

yes she had vape oil - she admitted to it

Does that even have psychotropic potential?

what does it matter if it has a psychotropic effect? its illegal that is all that matters

Whether it's considered natural, or pharmaceutical I don't know, but can imagine it doesn't matter, in Russia.

Its a banned substance in Russia and that is all that matters.

Khat was legal in UK up until 2014 it was and remains illegal in the US suppose the US customs found a British tourist with a bundle of khat in their bag what do you imagine their response would have been?
(The range of punishment for possession of khat depends on the amount possessed and can include up to life in prison)

 

[sear]

Sorry she is definitely indisputably guilty why would you want to have her repatriated, so you have have the pleasure of having your tax dollars house the criminal rather than have Russia pay for it?

Repatriate may rhyme with incarcerate, they are not synonyms. Repatriate means to restore or return to the country of birth, citizenship. But you may be right. I projected my own preference onto Griner. Perhaps she prefers Russian prison life to the married life she left behind.

what does it matter if it has a psychotropic effect? its illegal that is all that matters

It ostensibly matters in the U.S.
It's called the "Drug War", most of the government quarry is recreational psychotropic medication. I haven't reviewed the most up-to-date data on topical medications. But surely you are correct, if we are going to premise it on the single unitary standard for all such matters, Russia, then all is well, end of discussion.

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: repatriate

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: repatriate

ahdictionary.com

 

[mark mywords]

Repatriate may rhyme with incarcerate, they are not synonyms. Repatriate means to restore or return to the country of birth, citizenship. But you may be right.

the usual deal is that a convicted prisoner is repatriated to serve out the remainder of their sentence, although they are physically in one country they remain in the custody of the country in which they were convicted - in other words they could not be released from jail without in this case the approval of Russia.
Of course you could just quietly release them (America go back on an international agreement? surely not) but if you did I wouldnt like to be the next American convicted in a foreign country!

It ostensibly matters in the U.S.

She wasnt in the US

 

[Rampage]

U.N. chief delays travel to try to bring Russia back into grain deal​

More than 9 million tonnes of corn, wheat, sunflower products, barley, rapeseed and soy have been exported under the deal, which was negotiated by Turkey along with the United Nations.
Ukraine's infrastructure ministry said 218 vessels were "effectively blocked" by the decision.
"We call on Russia to reconsider its decision and renew the deal urgently, enabling food to reach those who need it most," NATO spokesperson Oana Lungescu said.

NATO said Ukraine's grain exports have helped reduce food prices the world over.

U.N. chief delays travel to try to bring Russia back into grain deal

Antonio Guterres was trying to revive the agreement, which aims to ease a global food crisis. President Biden said the suspension would increase starvation, and Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Russia was "weaponizing food."

www.reuters.com

Putin starving the poor for leverage in Ukraine?

 

[b23zombie]

are you surprised? i'm not.

 

[sear]

R #151 & b #152

Surprise in such matters should not be disregarded. But neither should it be required.
There doesn't seem to be a bottom to what Putin will stoop to. Surprised? Sadly, no.

Putin / Ukraine may not be as safely distant as the map might suggest.

The Hill
Russian oligarch linked to Putin says he interfered in US elections

Russian oligarch Yevgeny Prigozhin, "Putin's chef," admits ...
https://www.cbsnews.com