Russia is a neofascist (and nazi) state

[b23zombie]

part II

[oversimplification]
There are two approaches to standing down the risk of aggression from someone / something.
One is to inform them that you are no threat, and that they can put down the gun.
The other is to continue to hold the gun on them for perpetuity, KNOWING that even a brief moment's lapse could spell your own doom.

OBVIOUSLY surrounding Russia with NATO members might have seemed to prevent Russian adventurism.
But it would have left Russia at odds, odd man out, disenfranchised from the world, a permanent if not eternal 2nd class member of the community of nations, with no realistic prayer of ever acquiring for its people a standard of living comparable to that of the West.

ABSOLUTELY it's one approach. BUT !!
As a former Cold Warrior, as a component of NATO's complement in time of that Cold War, I believe if we'd done that with Germany and Japan we'd still be at virtual Cold War with each of them. I think that's TOTALLY a horrid idea!
I think it worked out MUCH better welcoming them as friends, allies, peers, and equal share partners in the global prosperity we've managed to develop since the pair of giant mushrooms faded from Japan's sky.

You think a double-standard is better? Why?
[/oversimplification]

okay, my phrasing wasn't good, true. but we could still have brought those countries into NATO without alienating russia by giving them the choice to truly stand down and join in on their own. i doubt they would have, though. do you think they would have accepted the measures that japan and germany did in order to remain aa part of the global community? i don't.
so i see why you thought of it as a double standard, i'm not always great at getting my thoughts properly expressed.

 

[b23zombie]

If your touchpad has two mouse-like buttons, you should be able to dragon-drop in much the same was as mouse.
BUT, a USB (not PS2) mouse only costs a few $$. Newegg 'll plop one at your house for free. Find one a color you like, optical (not sure they make the rolling ball kind anymore).
All you need is any spare USB port. AND (believe it or not, and I was ASTOUNDED when I learned this) you can get a "hub" for a few $$ that can turn one USB port into many.

MOUSE: https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=usb+optical+mouse&Order=1
HUB : https://www.newegg.com/p/pl?d=usb+hub&Order=1

i'll take a closer look at those links, thanks! my husband and i share this, and he's going bonkers with not being able to change the screensaver thingajig, lol!

 

[sear]

okay, my phrasing wasn't good, true. but we could still have brought those countries into NATO without alienating russia by giving them the choice to truly stand down

"While it is important to avoid impropriety, it's also important to avoid the appearance of impropriety." Joy Browne PhD

There's other ways to go about it. But one of the ways least likely to enable Russia's buyer's remorse later on is to give them the impression they do so voluntarily.

You see, even though NATO expansion isn't actually a threat to Russia's sovereignty, it IS a threat to Russian expansionism. And Kremlin hawks can spin nearly any of that into Russian danger that must result in (whatever warlike move they want to justify).

Am I a broken record here? (you're welcome anachronism / phonograph fans) The U.S. / West welcomed our reviled enemies into friendly alliance, both Germany (remember the holocaust?) & Japan (remember Pearl Harbor?).

I sincerely believe if we didn't extend peace and prosperity to Russia on that scale, it would have had much less likelihood of success.

 

[Victor Danilchenko]

That's dismissal by insinuation of superiority. You have yet to make a valid point against it

I already did. Destroying USSR was a far superior path forward to trying to rescue it. USSR could not be rescued, for the same reason russia could not be rescued -- it was driven by a deep cultural framework, regardless of official ideology, which was hell-bent on imperialism.

I already showed you evidence: even the "liberal reformer" Yeltsin immediately attacked Moldova, Dagestan, Azerbaijan, Georgia, etc. And before him, "liberal reformer" Gorbachev prosecuted the war in Afghanistan, attacked protests in Georgia and Kazakhstan, launched military action in the Baltics, etc.

If you cannot learn from history, if you cannot learn about people by observing what they DO and keep insisting on some idealistic fantasies, there's really little more to say.

 

[Victor Danilchenko]

Assuming you are correct and Russia is a "neofascist (and nazi) state" so what? (not sure how the latter term augments or moderates the former but never mind)
Saying or even proving that Russia is the same as Ukraine neither makes Russia look worse nor Ukraine look better.

It's not the same as Ukraine because, contrary to your deranged lies, Ukraine is not a fasicst state (neo- or otherwise).

The conclusion that russia is a fascist state -- and understanding why -- is very important to charting an effective future path of dealing with russia.

 

[Victor Danilchenko]

above is a picture of PRESIDENT Zellensky bestowing one of his countries highest awards to the man who lead the Right Sector at the time

Yeah. The JEWISH president Zelensky elected in FREE AND FAIR elections.

When was the last time a fascist state -- ANY fascist state -- held free and fair elections?

You are deranged.

 

[Victor Danilchenko]

I think it worked out MUCH better welcoming them as friends, allies, peers, and equal share partners in the global prosperity we've managed to develop since the pair of giant mushrooms faded from Japan's sky.

You think a double-standard is better? Why?

Because russia could not be reformed without a full, radical, top-to-bottom rebuilding. And that takes a military occupation.

We didn't merely welcome Japan and Germany with open arms. We first occupied them for many years, and rebuilt their societies top to bottom. But you can't occupy a nuclear power.

Does that help?

 

[sear]

I already did.

You may sincerely think you did. Nothing that meets what I could define as that, in clear conscience.

I already did. Destroying USSR was a far superior path forward to trying to rescue it.

The premise of the GHWB letter is that the USSR is already destroyed !

Destroying USSR was a far superior path forward to trying to rescue it. USSR could not be rescued, for the same reason russia could not be rescued

Was Japan not already destroyed?
Do you know why the Allies bombed Dresden?
Vonnegut said it was because the rest of Germany had all been bombed flat. There was no significant German military infrastructure in Dresden. But it was a neighborhood the Allies hadn't yet left bomb craters in.

Mr. D:
Not sure why you're acting so obtuse about this. But you've been wrong from the start, and you're still wrong now, making a seemingly endless parade of absurd assumptions that are not rational.

 

[mark mywords]

Yeah. The JEWISH president Zelensky elected in FREE AND FAIR elections.

His parents are certainly said to be Jewish - Voldemort not so much

You think it inherent in fascist ideology that Jews are bad?

When was the last time a fascist state -- ANY fascist state -- held free and fair elections?

The american ambassador didnt say that they were free and fair, and you still have not explained how an election can be free and fair when there are ELEVEN political parties which are banned or when political opponents are kidnapped and murdered

 

[sear]

m #29
Just curious, do you perceive me as a fence straddler?

Either way, I've known many a purist, and envy them the simplicity of it.
But in the real world I seldom find successful purism. The U.S. is sometimes called "capitalist". But government's wealth redistribution schemes render that impure.

How lovely it might seem ideologically for Ukraine to have literally "free & fair" elections. BUT !! ...

I lived for years in West Germany, both as military, & as civilian. Often the differences between that West German culture an the New York State culture I was accustomed to were slim enough to be ignored. BUT !!
Germany had just been through quite an event. "World War Two" the called it. Germany's supreme leader had attempted global genocide, "eugenics" to purify the human race. He attempted this by modern industrialized extermination, and reportedly murdered millions.

That is a burden of shame Germany struggled to shoulder in the mid-'70's while I was there.
Germany, seemingly a fairly free nation (in some ways more free than the U.S.) imposed restrictions Nazi artifacts, banned Hitler's Mein Kampf, etc.

Why? Because Germans is bad? They secretly wanted to protect themselves from the "free and fair" label?

It was to show themselves & the world that they were sorry about it, and were sincere in not allowing a repeat.

It may seem paradoxical that to maintain a free society one must impose restrictions as you describe with the 11 banned political parties.
Paradox or not, thus it is. I'd be careful to insinuate nefarious motive. I suspect it's rather more the opposite, both in Ukraine, and in Germany.

 

[mark mywords]

The U.S. is sometimes called "capitalist". But government's wealth redistribution schemes render that impure.

even 9carat gold is classed as gold

If you compare the welfare benefits in Europe with those in America it is rather like comparing chalk with cheese

 

[sear]

My premise for this post:
"The proverb warns that "You should not bite the hand that feeds you." But maybe you should, if it prevents you from feeding yourself." psychiatrist Thomas Szasz

I would like to avoid declaring a right or wrong here. They're different. But in context of Szasz above:
U.S. citizens even past mid-20th century were admired for our "rugged individualism" and "self-reliance".
Anyone that can remember such spontaneous utterance is older than dirt.

By and large government charity is disempowering. For one, it encroaches on the good works of the tax exempt church, that used to care for the indigent, etc.
Seems to me the idea should be to empower, not disempower. I'm not the first to have thought so, as demonstrated by the hackneyed:
Give a man a fish, he eats for a day.
Teach the man to fish, he eats for a lifetime.

Again, no right or wrong here.
I'm simply not mentally equipped to wrestle in the league about how society should deal with the severely handicapped, those that can breathe and pooh, but not much else.
Fortunately they're a slim minority. Ideologically, I'd rather teach the man to fish.

 

[mark mywords]

Give a man a fish, he eats for a day.
Teach the man to fish, he eats for a lifetime

not much point in teaching a man to fish if you have just netted the only pool he has access to.

Self reliance is great - but it was a whole heap better in the past, these days it doesnt matter what your work ethic or education or intelligence is it is all too easy to find yourself flipping burgers for $2 and hour plus charity sorry tips

 

[mark mywords]

Up in the morning and out to school
Mother says there'll be no work next year
Qualifications, once the Golden Rule
Are now just pieces of paper
If you look the part you'll get the job
In last year's trousers and your old school shoes
The truth is, son, it's a buyer's market
They can afford to pick and choose
Just because you're better than me
Doesn't mean I'm lazy
Just because I dress like this
Doesn't mean I'm a communist
The factories are closing and the army's full
I don't know what I'm going to do
But I've come to see in the Land of the Free
There's only a future for the Chosen Few
At twenty one you're on top of the scrapheap
At sixteen you were top of your class
All they taught you at school
Was how to be a good worker
The system has failed you, don't fail yourself

Billy Bragg

 

[sear]

m #33

"There is no law that says we have to go to work every day and follow our employer's orders. Legally there is nothing to prevent us from going to live in the wild like primitive people or from going into business for ourselves. But in practice there is very little wild country left, and there is room in the economy for only a limited number of small business owners. Hence most of us can survive only as someone else's employee."
Excerpt from Unabomb Manifesto: author convict Theodore Kaczynski; sentenced to Lifetime imprisonment without possibility of parole

I don't champion Ted's methods. But in our ever more interwoven socio-political-economic network, the romantic, idealized notion of the independent self-sufficient frontiersman is a practical impossibility.
I'm not denying the poison pill.
I'm merely suggesting "a spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down", and that the downside of our culture however deplorable, is more than compensated for by the unimaginable broad suite of miracles we have at our disposal. King Hank8 could not have dreamed of flying to Barbados for the weekend. Yet for us, the hard part is not the airfare, but making sure the passport hasn't expired. Imagine trying to 'splain the Internet at good King Henry's court. You'd be lucky if they merely beheaded you for your effort.

 

[sear]

Billy Bragg

So rob a bank you lazy bastage!

I don't mean to be dismissive about it. I understand the dilemma of those that are up to their eyeballs in student loans, and need to earn above minimum wage simply to make the loan payments. BUT !!

The dire description in #34 doesn't seem to adequately describe current U.S. conditions. For obvious example, jobs are going begging here (pardon my poor phrasing, brainlock [temporary I hope]).
There are problems here. Finding employment doesn't seem to be one of them.

 

[mark mywords]

I don't mean to be dismissive about it. I understand the dilemma of those that are up to their eyeballs in student loans, and need to earn above minimum wage simply to make the loan payments

At least we dont have that problem, our student loans are only repayable once you hit a certain threshold ( I think its £21000) and then you pay a fixed percentage of your income over that minimum.

I dont worry about it, I graduated from my first degree 16 years ago and havent repaid a penny it should have been written off this year but they didnt write to tell me.

Long time ago now but a cousin of mine a graduate with a masters and a PhD worked for several years stacking shelves in a supermarket - it was all she could get.

There are problems here. Finding employment doesn't seem to be one of them.

From what I understand the problem is getting a job that pays a wage that you can live on.
You you get the same money (or more) on benefits why should you work? If a worker on full time hours has to get food stamps or what ever other benefits THEY are not being subsidised THE EMPLOYER is.

I heard some one on social media (so it may not be accurate) say that Walmart only pay medical benefits if you work full time hours (5 hours) for four consecutive weeks and routinely on week 4 you only get rostered for 32 hours.

Of recent years here "zero hours contracts" have reared their ugly head the employer rings you up and tells you that either you arent needed that day or that you are needed BUT you have to be available every day because if you decline on a day that you are needed you dont get work again (you arent fired because that would be illegal you just dont get offered work or get offered work that no one wants)

 

[sear]

Please pardon my ramble:

I gather the free education for high school k - 12 is a standard set when the blue-collar middle-class was a reasonable social target. BUT !!
It's a new millennium. I don't think k - 12 is enough anymore. My question is, should we bump it up to k - 14? Or is k - 16 more appropriate for the decades it will function as the new standard?

"From what I understand the problem is getting a job that pays a wage that you can live on." m #37

It must be, for at least some. Several complications. For one, in the U.S. "minimum wage" applies to entry level positions. Near as I can tell there are some first time new hires that should be paying for the training, rather than collecting $$ for it.

"Most poor people are making more than the minimum wage, and most people making the minimum wage are not poor people, they're students and other part time workers." George Will

"I heard some one on social media (so it may not be accurate) say that Walmart only pay medical benefits if you work full time hours (5 hours) for four consecutive weeks and routinely on week 4 you only get rostered for 32 hours.

Of recent years here "zero hours contracts" have reared their ugly head the employer rings you up and tells you that either you arent needed that day or that you are needed BUT you have to be available every day because if you decline on a day that you are needed you dont get work again (you arent fired because that would be illegal you just dont get offered work or get offered work that no one wants)" m #37

I hate it.
It seems like greedy rich people setting policy to pinch pennies from the bottom of their totem pole.

My personal experience, the better paying the job, the better the benefits, the more comfortable, and the safer the work is. I recoil in astonishment at what I was exposed to in my early jobs, including U.S. military.
Glad I survived. And while it might not have been glorious, it does seem to have heightened my appreciation for luxuries like upholstered furniture, and furniture.

 

[b23zombie]

"While it is important to avoid impropriety, it's also important to avoid the appearance of impropriety." Joy Browne PhD

There's other ways to go about it. But one of the ways least likely to enable Russia's buyer's remorse later on is to give them the impression they do so voluntarily.

You see, even though NATO expansion isn't actually a threat to Russia's sovereignty, it IS a threat to Russian expansionism. And Kremlin hawks can spin nearly any of that into Russian danger that must result in (whatever warlike move they want to justify).

Am I a broken record here? (you're welcome anachronism / phonograph fans) The U.S. / West welcomed our reviled enemies into friendly alliance, both Germany (remember the holocaust?) & Japan (remember Pearl Harbor?).

I sincerely believe if we didn't extend peace and prosperity to Russia on that scale, it would have had much less likelihood of success.

this is a hard situation for me to discuss, i think i have to think about how to phrase my POV properly.

 

[sear]

i think i have to think about how to phrase my POV properly.

No insult intended, but you may simply not be dastardly enough to mimic the Kremlin hawk mentality.
Reductio ad absurdum:
if they'd been sensible about it they could have ended the Cold War decades earlier. They continued to pretend they were heroically defending mother Russia from the evil Western world. It's so preposterous it's even difficult to satirize.