Elizabeth circling the drain

[Rampage]

No, there should be a referendum;

The term Jefferson used was "consent of the governed". Worth noting Putin is running a sham referendum inside Ukraine, an effort to legitimize Russia's claim to territory. That's a problem, an obvious one.

A less obvious problem of equal consequence is a whole voting population being disinformed by money interests that out-spend a more wholesome position ten to one.

The risks may not negate the idea of a referendum entirely. But be aware of the risks. Such votes should be made with the honestly informed consent of the voters.

 

[mark mywords]

Worth noting Putin is running a sham referendum inside Ukraine, an effort to legitimize Russia's claim to territory. That's a problem, an obvious one.

why is a "sham election"?
I know that the media (and governments) in the west are desperate to portray it as such but since the area has been fighting a virtual civil war in order to gain independence from Ukraine for the last 7 years there would seem to be at least some level of support for leaving Ukraine and rejoining Russia.
Suppose the election can be demonstrated to be "free and fair"** would it still be a sham?

**shall we say at least as free and fair as a US election (with the endemic gerrymandering and deregistration of voters that goes on there)

 

[Borg Refinery]

The term Jefferson used was "consent of the governed". Worth noting Putin is running a sham referendum inside Ukraine, an effort to legitimize Russia's claim to territory. That's a problem, an obvious one.

A less obvious problem of equal consequence is a whole voting population being disinformed by money interests that out-spend a more wholesome position ten to one.

The risks may not negate the idea of a referendum entirely. But be aware of the risks. Such votes should be made with the honestly informed consent of the voters.

I agree.

 

[Borg Refinery]

why is a "sham election"?
I know that the media (and governments) in the west are desperate to portray it as such but since the area has been fighting a virtual civil war in order to gain independence from Ukraine for the last 7 years there would seem to be at least some level of support for leaving Ukraine and rejoining Russia.
Suppose the election can be demonstrated to be "free and fair"** would it still be a sham?

**shall we say at least as free and fair as a US election (with the endemic gerrymandering and deregistration of voters that goes on there)

The sham referendum Russia ran, was a sham.

 

[mark mywords]

The sham referendum Russia ran, was a sham.

yes you say that but why is it a sham?

I accept that it might be, even that it probably is, but I dont accept that it is necessarily so. just because the western media tell me so.
The people of east Ukraine have been fighting for their independence from Ukraine since at least 2014 (when a US backed right wing faction over threw the Ukraine government and among other measures blocked Russian language TV and severely restricted the teaching of Russian in schools). Many of those in eastern Ukraine are ethnically Russian and have a great affinity to Russia.

As i reported some time ago in a different thread if you google the war between Donbas and Ukraine you will find lots of reports of the Donbas bombing Ukraine but almost nothing about the Ukraine bombing Donbas. So either this is the most one sided war in history or we are not being told the truth.

The west (EU and America) threw their hat in with the Fascists that took power in Ukraine in 2014






Sen John McCain with neo-nazi Tyahnybok


US ambassador handing our cookies to anti government protestors in Ukraine

 

[sear]

"The sham referendum Russia ran, was a sham." O #24

"yes you say that but why is it a sham?" mm #25

mm #25
I've cyber-known you long enough to believe you're one of the wisest, best informed persons I've ever cyber-met.
I imagine therefore either I misunderstand here, or you're playing a didactic angle that's a mystery to me.

The direct answer to your question of course is:
There is no standard of international law that allows an invading military power to hold elections on choice of sovereignty at gunpoint.

Surely you're smart enough to know that. So it seems to me something else is going on here. Darned if I can figure out what it is.

sham (shăm) n. 1. a. Something false or empty that is purported to be genuine: “Because she had been so readily unfaithful, her marriage was a sham” (Alice Munro). b. Deceitfulness or pretense: “She saw herself as a person surrounded by, living by, sham” (Alice Munro). c. A person who claims to be what that person is not; an impostor or fraud: “He a man! Hell! He was a hollow sham!” (Joseph Conrad). 2. A decorative cover for a pillow. adj. Not genuine; fake: sham diamonds; sham modesty. v. intr. To assume a false appearance or character; dissemble. [Perhaps dialectal variant of SHAME.] The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition copyright ©2022 by HarperCollins Publishers. All rights reserved.

 

[Zhelana]

yes you say that but why is it a sham?

I accept that it might be, even that it probably is, but I dont accept that it is necessarily so. just because the western media tell me so.
The people of east Ukraine have been fighting for their independence from Ukraine since at least 2014 (when a US backed right wing faction over threw the Ukraine government and among other measures blocked Russian language TV and severely restricted the teaching of Russian in schools). Many of those in eastern Ukraine are ethnically Russian and have a great affinity to Russia.

As i reported some time ago in a different thread if you google the war between Donbas and Ukraine you will find lots of reports of the Donbas bombing Ukraine but almost nothing about the Ukraine bombing Donbas. So either this is the most one sided war in history or we are not being told the truth.

The west (EU and America) threw their hat in with the Fascists that took power in Ukraine in 2014

They have not been fighting a war of independence. Russia has been fighting to force them into independence. Have you not seen any of the reports coming out of the occupied territories? Genocide, child rape, torture... why would any sane person side with Russia?

 

[mark mywords]

There is no standard of international law that allows an invading military power to hold elections on choice of sovereignty at gunpoint

How long after the invasion does the invading army have to wait?
I recall general approval when Britain organised similar elections in India Pakistan and Ireland

The election being illegal (or rather being unsupported by international law) is not the same as a "sham election"


The being "held at gun point" there are many elections held at gun point what is important is that the election is "free and fair"

They have not been fighting a war of independence.

they havent?
Thats odd because they think that they have been, the people in east Ukraine have declared two quasi autonomous zones - THEY did this not the Russians their fight has been going on ever since the US supported neo Nazi uprising over threw the elected government in 2014

War in Donbas (2014–2022) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Have you not seen any of the reports coming out of the occupied territories? Genocide, child rape, torture

I have seen them most of them I dont believe some of them are obviously false.

I am assuming that you read the reports of "Genocide, child rape, torture" that came out of both Iraq and Afghanistan..........why would any one support America?

 

[Zhelana]

LOL Stop getting your news form RT. Russia did that, not those regions. And there was no genocide or child rape coming from orders from the pentagon in either Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

[mark mywords]

Stop getting your news form RT.

Perhaps you dont know but RT was closed down months ago apparently western government didnt like their "facts" being challenged.

Russia did that, not those regions

Russia has been occupying parts of Ukraine since 2014 and waging a war from the occupied territory is that what you are claiming?
I would have expected The US government under Trumps presidency to have been all over that (if it were true)


And there was no genocide or child rape coming from orders from the pentagon in either Iraq or Afghanistan.
nice little side swerve there about "orders from the pentagon" but I didnt actually claim there was any genocide murders or child rapes just that there were REPORTS of them.
Claims made by one belligerent against another belligerent should always be regarded with some suspicion whether those claims are made by Iraqis against the US or by Ukraine against Russia.
In both cases of course the claimed atrocities did occasionally happen, US agents did torture people, the did rape people (including children) and they absolutely did murder people. Im sure that Russians have murdered and raped just as every invading army has done since the dawn of time, does that make it right absolutely not, but if your hands are dirty you can hardly criticise others for their unclean hands.

 

[sear]

"How long after the invasion does the invading army have to wait?" mm #28

That's twice in less than 12 hours you've surprised me mm.
Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-NY) called that "semantic infiltration". The truth is as you probably know, such legitimacy is not determined by time elapsed. It's determined by the will of that specific population, and the legitimacy of the process. Once coercive military force is involved, meticulous scrutiny is required.
Our international trade partners and military allies seem to have a fairly wholesome respect for Ukraine's position. It's simple pragmatism.

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." U.S. Founder Thomas Paine

"I recall general approval when Britain organised similar elections in India Pakistan and Ireland" mm #28

Did Britain first conduct an entirely unprovoked full scale military invasion with echelons of tanks, and rape and torture children?

I believe you're smart enough to distinguish what has been done with how it was done. The "sanity check" that verifies the absurdity of your comparison is that Britain exerts no substantial hegemony on India.

Greetings Zhelana. Welcome to @CV.

"They have not been fighting a war of independence. Russia has been fighting to force them into independence." Z #27

Independence from Ukraine, but dependence upon Russia.

"child rape, torture... why would any sane person side with Russia?" Z #27

I'd think the differential in standard of living would suffice. Add the human rights differential, including Russia's war crimes,
it would seem to make Russia a hard sell. Reports are filtering out of Russia of conscription-aged Russian men are fleeing in droves.
Think it through Vlady. Flogging the mule's corpse won't make it run faster.

Thanks for joining us @CV Z #27.
Visit often. Post a lot.

"The being "held at gun point" there are many elections held at gun point what is important is that the election is "free and fair"" mm #28

Are you suggesting there are free & fair elections held at gunpoint?

Z #29
I acknowledge what may look like naïveté may have some semblance of validity. I certainly believe Russian agents helped foment pro-Russian sentiment in Eastern Ukraine.
It's dreadful of course. But the U.S.' hands haven't been clean of it since Ike helped undermine Iran's duly elected Mosaddegh. But that's ancient history, and Russia / Ukraine is today.

"I would have expected The US government under Trumps presidency to have been all over that (if it were true)" mm #30

Seemingly plausible perhaps. But it's a fundamental misread of Trump. Trump liked thugs, a lot!

“There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea.” President Trump 2018, after his poorly prepared summit w/ NK/KJU
“We fell in love.” President Trump commenting on his relationship w/ NK/KJU

 

[mark mywords]

Did Britain first conduct an entirely unprovoked full scale military invasion with echelons of tanks, and rape and torture children?

Well not the tanks (they werent invented at the time of the invasions) but the other stuff? absolutely!

Remember when the US (et al) invaded Iraq (second time) tanks, cruise missiles etc etc once the killing had settled down to a dull roar they set about organising elections to elect a US puppet government. Afghanistan more of the same.



Are you suggesting there are free & fair elections held at gunpoint?
"gun point" is an emotive phrase from what little we are being shown no one is being forced to vote this way or that yes guns are present but arent guns present at US elections? guns that are carried by cops whose impartiality is at the very least open to question (how many of the armed cops who wear a "thin blue line" badge do you suppose vote democrat?)
For years polling stations here swarmed with heavily armed police who were seen by many to be very partial and yet despite the guns and despite the nature of the police here the elections were generally seen as free and fair.

 

[Rampage]

mark, the graphics you posted in #32 deserve comment.

Openly displaying specific political party or specific political candidate affiliation while on duty in official department uniform should be a violation of explicit department policy. U.S. flags are widely accepted. Few others are.

The insignia on the collars of the masked policeman indicates high rank within the officer corp. He should know better.

The second picture, a close-up of the left shoulder patch is not the same as the left shoulder patch on the first graphic. The insignia on the collar may not match. The microphones do not.

None the less mark the first picture is alarming, even if merely a statistical anecdote.

 

[mark mywords]

the wearer of the Trump mask was "disciplined" what form this took I dont know but given that a cop can beat up a citizen and face almost no sanction I cant imagine that the punishment was at all severe.
The shoulder patches were not intended to be the same the shoulder patch is to show the "thin blue line" insignia worn by many officers which go
w-a-y beyond simply enforcing the fact that the person is a cop is is a very clear political statement.

No one (or very few) would claim that these armed and politically driven cops skew the results of US elections so why claim that similarly armed and politically driven influence the fairness of elections?

polling stations here in the 1980s

 

[sear]

"the shoulder patch is to show the "thin blue line" insignia worn by many officers which go w-a-y beyond simply enforcing the fact that the person is a cop is is a very clear political statement." mm #34

A "a very clear political statement"?
Care to specify? If it's "a very clear political statement" it should be a simple matter to post it concisely, perhaps by quotation with attribute.

I'm not endorsing it.
But there wherewithal to produce the Mount Prospect patch carries implications.
- A sewing machine capable of that may cost $1,000. That may not be prohibitive. But I suspect that patch was produced professionally.
There's a history to the "the thin blue line" idea. IMDB lists it as a short-lived TV series. I didn't see that series, but understand the term took on racist overtones.
I'm not defending any of it, but would at least like to know more about this "very clear political statement".

- What the %$#@ are these police chiefs [not] doing ?! If they don't know what uniform their subordinates are wearing on duty those police chiefs should be fired. If they do know, then what?

Please understand mm #34. I'm not trying to smack you down here. I'm grateful to you for banging the gong here. It is in point of fact precisely what CitizenVoice is founded for, to provide voice to address such issues. Rather than contradiction, I'm hoping to help sharpen your point, to nail the bad guys if we can.

 

[mark mywords]

A "a very clear political statement"?
Care to specify? If it's "a very clear political statement" it should be a simple matter to post it concisely, perhaps by quotation with attribute.

I think that this makes the case very well (ok its not concise) -

The Short, Fraught History of the ‘Thin Blue Line’ American Flag

The controversial version of the U.S. flag has been hailed as a sign of police solidarity and criticized as a symbol of white supremacy.

www.themarshallproject.org

a very brief except from the above -
"But it [ thin blue line flag] has also been flown by white supremacists, appearing next to Confederate flags at the 2017 ‘Unite the Right’ rally in Charlottesville, Virginia. County officials in Oregon recently paid $100,000 to a black employee of a law enforcement agency there, after she said she was harassed by coworkers for complaining about her colleagues displaying the flag at work."


see also https://www.foxnews.com/media/thin-blue-line-flag-anti-black-lives-matter-politifact

 

[titan]

"But it [ thin blue line flag] has also been flown by white supremacists, appearing next to Confederate flags

"Patriotism: the last refuge of a scoundrel." It appears racists and others rally around such symbols as the U.S. flag not to endorse what it officially stands for, but to attempt to falsely acquire, steal the legitimacy such symbols betoken, to elevate their disreputable cause. Mark mentions the confederate flag, long a favorite in the Southeast U.S.
There the "rebel flag" symbolizes the antebellum South, and the glory days of cotton pickin slavery. It is offensive to Blacks for this reason. Southerners that defend display of this symbol excuse it in part by saying they're merely honoring war dead, those that lost their lives at war, just as those in the North do with the U.S. flag with from 33 to 36 stars.

 

[sear]

Regarding QE2:
In the news I haven't seen video of angry mobs brandishing agricultural implements and demanding reforms. That may be as close to praise as one might expect for nascent King Charles.

Give 'em heck Chuck !

 

[mark mywords]

Regarding QE2:
In the news I haven't seen video of angry mobs brandishing agricultural implements and demanding reforms. That may be as close to praise as one might expect for nascent King Charles.

Largely because they are too busy demanding Liz Truss' (current prime minister) head on a pike! in less than 2 weeks she has almost single handedly sunk the British economy

 

[sear]

Atta Boy Chaz! Let the chicks run interference for you!