Elizabeth circling the drain

[Borg Refinery]

You seem like a nice enough guy mark and you certainly seem intelligent, it's surprising to me too, to hear your remarks about the referendum.

Come on brother.

Think about it, look at the evidence for yourself.

Wiki references most of its claims and refutes the narrative just fine.

There are just soooooo many reasons it was a sham referendum......

 

[sear]

"You seem like a nice enough guy mark and you certainly seem intelligent" O #41

I wish somebody'd call me that.

Nice to read you O #41. Enjoy your weekend.

 

[mark mywords]

Wiki references most of its claims and refutes the narrative just fine.

for all we know the Wiki entry could have been written by a CIA agent!

by the way your wiki link refers to 7 years ago NOT the current election.

I dont say that the recent poll was perfect with out flaws or isnt open to question I just dont agree with cancelling it on principle before we have even seen what the flaws are

 

[mark mywords]

I will put this here it can be moved later if appropriate

Crimea, Russia walked in there 2014 with scarcely a word of complaint from the US EU or any one else (OK the Ukrainians didnt like it much but didnt go to war over it) so why is the Donbas different?
Well I stumbled upon something to day which might explain the difference.
The east of Ukraine (the Donbas) has significant amounts of as yet largely untapped mineral resources some of them being teh ones the west is becoming short of for electronics

"Ukraine is one of the leading countries of the world in a wide range of minerals. Although it covers only 0.4% of the Earth’s surface, contains about 5% of the world’s mineral resources. It ranks top-10 of the world for several raw materials (metallic and non-metallic) such as titanium, ball clays, Fe-Mn & Fe-Si-Mn alloys and gallium. Lithium, graphite or magnesium, among others, are also present in Ukraine..
here is a map showing Lithium deposits in Ukraine


Ukraine is in the top ten producers of manganese ore in the world and has the largest manganese ore reserve in Europe. In 2010, the country produced over 736,000 metric tons of marketable manganese ores and concentrates, of which some 121,000 metric tons were exported and the rest used domestically to produce ferroalloys. The major reserves are located in the southern part of Ukraine. The Nikopol basin holds about a third of the explored reserves in the country while the Veliko-Tokmakskoye field holds 66% of the explored reserve

Ukraine holds the largest titanium reserve in Europe. There are 15 known deposits in different parts of the country, of which four are being explored. These deposits are situated in Kharkiv, Kiev, Donetsk, and Dnipropetrovsk regions.

UKRAINE: ALL LITHIUM RESERVES AND MINERAL RESOURCES IN WAR ZONES​

Ukraine: all lithium reserves and mineral resources in war zones

In the ancient rocks of Ukraine are hidden lithium deposits with great potential. Findings that have been identified mainly around the area of Mariupol, the port city of Donbass torn apart by Russian bombing

www.renewablematter.eu

I think if you accept (as I do) that the wars in Iraq were about oil under the guise of installing "freedom and democracy" then this is a war about minerals under the guise of nationalism on one side and freedom on the other. Or does any one think that the US and EU suddenly care about Ukraine in a way that they didnt in 2014?

 

[sear]

mm #43
I was tenaciously, perhaps somewhat ignorantly determined to avoid Wikipedia when it first opened, for precisely the risk you cite: disinformation.
But several times now (example, the specs on various USB ports & cables) I've not found the information anywhere else. I'm still skeptical, for Wiki doesn't / can't maintain the same level of journalistic integrity that Colliers or Britannica does. But I do get the impression they don't just let any drunken joe contribute.
Best to double-check / corroborate via independent source, just as we should with other sources.

"The east of Ukraine (the Donbas) has significant amounts of as yet largely untapped mineral resources some of them being teh ones the west is becoming short of for electronics" mm #44

That's huge, particularly if critical elements for batteries, which it looks like we'll be needing a lot of. Years ago I read there are more transistors on Earth than leaves on trees on Earth. We'd never git 'er dun with vacuum tube technology.

"I think if you accept (as I do) that the wars in Iraq were about oil under the guise of installing "freedom and democracy" then this is a war about minerals under the guise of nationalism on one side and freedom on the other. Or does any one think that the US and EU suddenly care about Ukraine in a way that they didnt in 2014?" mm #44

I think it would be a mistake to treat it like a binary, either 100% true, or 100% false. Instead, I suspect it's a matter of degree, proportion.
You may know mm, the Bushies deluded themselves about their -heroic- invasion of Iraq, that we'd be welcomed as "liberators". In early stage the Bushies were trying to decide what to call it, and nearly settled on: Operation Iraqi Liberation
They didn't stick with it though, when they figured out the acronym.
And yes, also very early in the planning, the idea was to pay the U.S. cost with Iraqi oil. It seems they got shamed out of that fairly quickly.

PS
You've got me wondering mm. Putin is invincibly ignorant about capitalism. He understands pride of ownership. I wonder if Putin realizes he might have purchased all the natural resources he'd need from Ukraine at lower cost than the cost of his military escapade. Putin is surely not done paying for that yet. And I wouldn't rule out Putin losing big over it, whether by popular revolt, or palace coup. Russia doesn't need Putin any more than the rest of the world.

 

[mark mywords]

I was tenaciously, perhaps somewhat ignorantly determined to avoid Wikipedia when it first opened, for precisely the risk you cite: disinformation.
But several times now (example, the specs on various USB ports & cables) I've not found the information anywhere else. I'm still skeptical, for Wiki doesn't / can't maintain the same level of journalistic integrity that Colliers or Britannica does. But I do get the impression they don't just let any drunken joe contribute

There are things for which wiki is fine for but anything contentious religious or political is too open to being "corrupted" by crazies.
If I wanted to know the number of US states its wiki all the way if I wanted to know the most successful president then possibly not wiki

I wonder if Putin realizes he might have purchased all the natural resources he'd need from Ukraine at lower cost than the cost of his military escapade.

maybe denying the west access to them is enough?
Russia has no significant electronics manufacturing base (chips screens etc) so on the face of it would have no interest in acquiring lithium, gallium (used in touch screens) or tantalum (capacitors).

Something else I have found is that Russia has committed only 20% of its regular army so why are they sending in raw untrained conscripts? Are the ancient tanks* we see footage of being destroyed by modern American antitank guns really all they have available?


*Russia’s main battle tank in the Ukraine war is the T-72. Russia has also operated a small number of T-80s and even fewer T-90s. But by far, the T-72, built as a cheaped-down version of the T-64 tank, is Ukraine’s main armor opponent.

 

[sear]

m #46,
Maybe it's why https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html is a personal favorite for me. I revere the OED.
BUT !
As Churchill said, the U.S. & the U.K. are separated by a common language. Where the U.S. version of English matters, I consult AHD. Rarely do I find it necessary to corroborate, or research further. So basically I'm lazy. The paradox is, that's what draws me to Wiki in the first place, but then requires an additional layer of scrutiny from me for whatever "information" I get from it.

"maybe denying the west access to them is enough?" m #46

Rarely mm can such vivid lucidity run astray. That may be the risk in attributing logic to Putin. Your quoted comment surely could explain it. And yet you (perhaps inadvertently) flatter Putin by attributing to him such logic.
Another explanation which may be equally or more plausible in Putin's case:
- Putin is a dyed in the wool Cold Warrior
- In psychology, what is familiar is often what is comfortable.

My standard example for citing Putin's cluelessness about economics: when Mitt Romney ran the Winter Olympics in Utah, it turned a profit.
When Putin ran the Winter Olympics in Sochi, it cost an estimated $20 $Billion.
Economics is a black box to Putin.

That's why I'm parsimonious about attributing intelligence to Putin. I think Putin simply has a Soviet world view.

 

[mark mywords]

My standard example for citing Putin's cluelessness about economics: when Mitt Romney ran the Winter Olympics in Utah, it turned a profit.
When Putin ran the Winter Olympics in Sochi, it cost an estimated $20 $Billion.

costs and profits are hard to pin down and even harder to calculate, the general figure for the cost of the Sochi Olympics was $50 billion according to Reuters they turned a profit of 3.25 billion roubles (at the time worth $53 million)

Sochi Winter Games made $53 million profit

The 2014 Sochi Winter Olympics made an operating profit of 3.25 billion roubles ($53.15 million), officials announced on Thursday.

www.reuters.com

As for the costs, obviously it costs a lot more if you build the facilities from scratch rather than use pre existing facilities but the consequence is that you now have a fairly sizeable town with first class sports facilities the town can be given over to alleviate local housing shortage and the sports facilities might draw in money for many years to come.


not strictly on topic but since we have discussed the economics of Greece else where here are some images of the 2004 Olympic venues in Greece taken in 2014

abandoned, derelict, vandalised

In contrast the Sochi stadium was used to host international sports events up until the boycott

 

[sear]

Getting tangled in the weeds (metaphor for detail) can lose the point.

Vlad rhymes with bad. Coincidence?!

Incontrovertibly. But you probably know as well as I do Putin has invaded Ukraine because he likes it. There are better ways to bring prosperity to Russia.

=====

Regarding Greece, I shouldn't opine. I certainly don't know enough about it. But if such details as Greece's retirement age is too early for the Greek economy to sustain, what did they think was going to happen? Reductio ad absurdum: graduate high school, work one year, and retire on full pension.
See?

I've been formulating a principle about hedonism, and Machiavellianism. I think by & large they don't work.

"I turned to drugs for mind expansion & pain reduction. What resulted was pain expansion and mind reduction." Star Wars actress Carrie Fischer

I don't mean to seem to be invoking any supernatural anything, even if I allude to holy scripture to help make the point:

you reap what you sow
Galations 6:7

I sense I'm more wide of the target than you are mm. This post #49 of mine barely rates a "gentleman's D".
I'm just a little off kilter this eve.

Carrie Fischer said the last time she took LSD was in Sri Lanka: "there was an elephant on the beach. And I thought, now I'm not hallucinating. If there really is an elephant on the beach, then what am I taking the acid for?"

PS

"costs and profits are hard to pin down" m #48

Perhaps this anecdote will be a little more persuasive. I believe it occurred shortly after The Wall fell, and Soviet market controls were abandoned.
According to my memory of the story, Putin found a woman in a store, unhappy about the cost of a loaf of bread. Putin, having clue zero about economics began brow-beating the shopkeeper. Putin could not be reasoned with. Putin exited the shop leaving the instruction, tomorrow the price of a loaf of bread should be lower.

Putin didn't get it then. It's a new millennium. He still doesn't get it. And though the string of dominoes may be difficult to trace, people are dying because of Putin's invincible economic ignorance (and his Cold War blood-lust).

 

[Borg Refinery]

Nothing wrong with Wiki when it's well sourced.

Wiki points out the 2014 referendum was a sham, this one is obviously also a sham. How can it be anything else with Putin in charge?

The fact is that we have an evil and murderous dictator engaged in genocide against Ukraine - how could a referendum at gunpoint possibly be trusted??? In and of itself, that's an absurd notion.

 

[sear]

" how could a referendum at gunpoint possibly be trusted??? In and of itself, that's an absurd notion." O #50

It's glaring punctuation on that sensible observation that it bears mentioning at all.

A drowning man will clutch at a straw. - Sir Thomas More

Putin is desperate.
It's not clear to me which is the higher priority for Putin:
- salvaging even a partial victory in Ukraine for the glory of mother Russia, or
- Putin's own tawdry reputation. I'm guessing Putin would rather be remembered as a heroic visionary leader, than a bumbling incompetent has-been, a failed Cold War relic failing to relive past glory.