What to call this thread?

sear said:
At least superficially that might seem to make sense.
The complications emerge when we evaluate the merit of punishing the victim for suffering abuse so traumatic the victim wasn't even comfortable discussing it with a government agent, a police detective.

Women in the military may have a compounding reason for silence, as divulging such misfortune can be a career ender.
Either way the publicity may simply be unendurable.
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Well yes, I could see remaining silent if there were possible repercussions.
But in this case, I think Jean Carroll and Trump were strangers?
Shiftless2 said:
View attachment 3614

Trans people vs bigots

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I see no problem with anyone being acceptable for military service.

But with sports I tend to think hormones can cause an advantage?
 
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Rigby5 said:
"I see no problem with anyone being acceptable for military service.
But with sports I tend to think hormones can cause an advantage?" R5 #1,182
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If competitive sport didn't segregate by sex, trans participation a non-issue in my opinion. BUT !
It does.

S2 may be right that it doesn't matter. The sanity check that undermines that conclusion: a transformation of sex including both surgery and artificial hormone treatments simply cannot not affect the patient.
Whether that affects the patient's competitive edge positively or negatively or substantially, subject for dispute.

3 gender competition? Men, Women, Trans?
Obvious problem, not enough trans in any given sport to structure a viable competition, NFL, WNBA style.

"While it is important to avoid impropriety, it is also important to avoid the appearance of impropriety." Joy Browne PhD
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I've got no dog in that fight. CERTAINLY I remain a champion of Liberty.

But the cliché is: your right to flail your fist ends short of where my nose begins.
Certainly trans athletes have rights. Cisgender don't?
So it's an error to treat this as an unambiguous binary. There are complications.

S2 has posted stats indicating transgender athletes are not typically statistical leaders in their sport. Reductio ad absurdum:

What shall we do if / when one is? A transgender athlete that proves to be unbeatable in their sport?
Perhaps without transition they'd have been equally victorious.
Problem is, how would we know?

Shiftless2 said:
\ \ "... how weak it makes you look" Labelle #1,183
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Do you suppose publishing such confrontations functions as therapy for Labelle relieving her own frustrations?
 
sear said:
If competitive sport didn't segregate by sex, trans participation a non-issue in my opinion. BUT !
It does.

S2 may be right that it doesn't matter. The sanity check that undermines that conclusion: a transformation of sex including both surgery and artificial hormone treatments simply cannot not affect the patient.
Whether that affects the patient's competitive edge positively or negatively or substantially, subject for dispute.

3 gender competition? Men, Women, Trans?
Obvious problem, not enough trans in any given sport to structure a viable competition, NFL, WNBA style.


I've got no dog in that fight. CERTAINLY I remain a champion of Liberty.

But the cliché is: your right to flail your fist ends short of where my nose begins.
Certainly trans athletes have rights. Cisgender don't?
So it's an error to treat this as an unambiguous binary. There are complications.

S2 has posted stats indicating transgender athletes are not typically statistical leaders in their sport. Reductio ad absurdum:

What shall we do if / when one is? A transgender athlete that proves to be unbeatable in their sport?
Perhaps without transition they'd have been equally victorious.
Problem is, how would we know?


Do you suppose publishing such confrontations functions as therapy for Labelle relieving her own frustrations?
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The case of Lia Thomas was pretty clearly due to a life time of testosterone.

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sear said:
S2 has posted stats indicating transgender athletes are not typically statistical leaders in their sport. Reductio ad absurdum:

What shall we do if / when one is? A transgender athlete that proves to be unbeatable in their sport?
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What shall we do if/when a cisgender athlete proves to be unbeatable in their sport? {Michael Phelps we're looking at you - he's a genetic freak and the perfect swimming machine.] Do we say that those outliers shouldn't be allowed to compete either?

Face it, not matter how hard the average Joe/Jane trains they're not going to win an Olympic medal - anyone who even makes the team let alone wins is abnormal.
 
Shiftless2 said:
What shall we do if/when a cisgender athlete proves to be unbeatable in their sport? {Michael Phelps we're looking at you - he's a genetic freak and the perfect swimming machine.] Do we say that those outliers shouldn't be allowed to compete either?

Face it, not matter how hard the average Joe/Jane trains they're not going to win an Olympic medal - anyone who even makes the team let alone wins is abnormal.
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But Lia Thomas first tried male competition and failed.
 
Rigby5 said:
Irrelevant.
That just means most trans are not in good shape.
Obviously some trans like Lia Thomas have unfair advantages from decades of testosterone.
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Now you're trolling.

If you bothered reading the excerpt I posted (or looked up the actual article) you'd see that it refers to trans athletes. Not individuals on the street.

Your statement applies equally to cis individuals - most people aren't in good shape - I know my days of doing 650 pushups after a two hour workout are long behind me. And a 5 mile run - don't even think about it.

But if your claim about MtF athletes having an advantage because they "grew up male" tell us why the podium isn't completely dominated by trans athletes - after all, both the IOC and NCAA have allowed them to compete for some years (since 2003 and 2010 respectively). But instead -nothing
 
Shiftless2 said:
"What shall we do if/when a cisgender athlete proves to be unbeatable in their sport? {Michael Phelps we're looking at you - he's a genetic freak and the perfect swimming machine.] Do we say that those outliers shouldn't be allowed to compete either?" S2 #1,186
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No.
Why?
Because the original Olympic premise, competition among naked men, was that they be men, NOT that they be average, or unexceptional. To the contrary, I thought the idea was for a nation to be represented by their most capable, the exceptional, not the average slacker, provided they were men.

The libs got involved, and women also competed in the Olympics. Risky gambit. First women compete in the Olympics. What next? They get to vote in political elections ?!?!

At that point, the premise was men and women, not anything goes. The idea that a competitor can not only select their own sex, but also choose which sex they wish to compete against, not consistent with the Olympic spirit.
 
Shiftless2 said:
Now you're trolling.

If you bothered reading the excerpt I posted (or looked up the actual article) you'd see that it refers to trans athletes. Not individuals on the street.

Your statement applies equally to cis individuals - most people aren't in good shape - I know my days of doing 650 pushups after a two hour workout are long behind me. And a 5 mile run - don't even think about it.

But if your claim about MtF athletes having an advantage because they "grew up male" tell us why the podium isn't completely dominated by trans athletes - after all, both the IOC and NCAA have allowed them to compete for some years (since 2003 and 2010 respectively). But instead -nothing
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The fact the number of trans is small, the number of trans athletes is smaller, and the number of good trans athletes is even smaller yet, is pointless.
All it takes is one Lia Thomas to destroy athletic competition for hundreds of athletes and millions of spectators.
I watched several competitions that included Lia Thomas, and they were all horrific to see.
 
Shiftless2 said:
Now you're trolling.

If you bothered reading the excerpt I posted (or looked up the actual article) you'd see that it refers to trans athletes. Not individuals on the street.

Your statement applies equally to cis individuals - most people aren't in good shape - I know my days of doing 650 pushups after a two hour workout are long behind me. And a 5 mile run - don't even think about it.

But if your claim about MtF athletes having an advantage because they "grew up male" tell us why the podium isn't completely dominated by trans athletes - after all, both the IOC and NCAA have allowed them to compete for some years (since 2003 and 2010 respectively). But instead -nothing
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In the case of Lia Thomas, the event was swimming, and Lia has about 8" more leg length and about twice the foot size, so obviously is going to trounce any woman.
Training, endurance, practice, skill, etc., has nothing to do with it.
It was all genetic, from birth.
Youi might as well let the competitors use jet skis then.
 
sear said:
At that point, the premise was men and women, not anything goes. The idea that a competitor can not only select their own sex, but also choose which sex they wish to compete against, not consistent with the Olympic spirit.
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Trans athletes do not select their own sex. Remember - sex and gender are not the same thing - nobody selects them - they just are.

And in order to compete they've got to be on cross sex hormones for a period of time and their hormone levels are carefully monitored. And after a time on hormones any advantage that may have existed from "growing up male" will disappear.
 
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Rigby5 said:
In the case of Lia Thomas, the event was swimming, and Lia has about 8" more leg length and about twice the foot size, so obviously is going to trounce any woman.
Training, endurance, practice, skill, etc., has nothing to do with it.
It was all genetic, from birth.
Youi might as well let the competitors use jet skis then.
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On that basis you might as well disqualify Michael Phelps - tall, arms and legs abnormally long, hand and foot size abnormally large, joints overly flexible, and his body produces less than half the lactic acid of a normal person.

And those are all genetic. From birth.

But you're still avoiding the elephant in the room. Since the IOC and NCAA have allowed trans athletes to compete for some years (since 2003 and 2010 respectively) if your concerns are legitimate why haven't they completely dominated the podium? Fact is, since the IOC allowed trans athletes to compete there have been over 80,000 Olympians and not a single trans medalist. Not one. Fact is last time I looked there had only been two MtF trans competitors - one came in 47th out of 52 and the other came in dead last.
 
Shiftless2 said:
"Trans athletes do not select their own sex. Remember - sex and gender are not the same thing - nobody selects them - they just are." S2 #1,194
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Exceptions aside, those that are trans-gendered are so by choice. Their own choice. Right? If not who is imposing it on them, and why?

Shiftless2 said:
"And in order to compete they've got to be on cross sex hormones for a period of time and their hormone levels are carefully monitored. And after a time on hormones any advantage that may have existed from "growing up male" will disappear." S2 #1,194
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I'd like to read the graph on that, including labeled axes, and units, and time span.
I can imagine a curve on a graph tapering to zero. I can also imagine a graph misrepresenting reality.

One cause for mental reservation: Lance Armstrong
He was NOT trans. BUT !
He did secretly use performance enhancing pharmaceutical, not just momentarily, but iirc for multiple Tours d' France.

In that context, ANY athletic competitor may be suspect. BUT !
That doesn't exclude trans.
 
Shiftless2 said:
Trans athletes do not select their own sex. Remember - sex and gender are not the same thing - nobody selects them - they just are.

And in order to compete they've got to be on cross sex hormones for a period of time and their hormone levels are carefully monitored. And after a time on hormones any advantage that may have existed from "growing up male" will disappear.
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I do not believe that "any advantage ... will disappear".
Like Lia Thomas, they are over a foot taller, and likely over 50 lbs heavier.
The denser high twitch muscle is not going to disappear.
The only mitigating facts are that I have seen some female athletes that also have larger bone structure, high twitch muscle, and a need to shave.
 
Rigby5 said:
"I do not believe that "any advantage ... will disappear"." R5 #1,197
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Another curve on the graph I can imagine, based literally on zero knowledge of bio-chemistry, but instead based on a few decades of industrial exposure to applied statistics:
I can imagine something rather more asymptotic, even if not technically an asymptote.
On that line of the graph the parameter may diminish toward, perhaps even reaching "noise"* level, but perhaps never reaching "zero" or whatever the level is where it's widely disregarded by proponents and opponents alike.

BUT
Well worth mentioning, S2 is not merely a welcome resource @CV & elsewhere, but a national international treasure as well.
I know of no reason to perceive his expertise in both insurance and math as literally "world class". - but -
We all may benefit from a sanity-check here or there. Scientists call it "peer review". Here at CV? "Squabbling"?

* This may not be the right term mathematically / scientifically. By "noise" here I refer to deviations small enough among competitors to be commonly statistically disregarded, even when technically they equal non-zero sums. The term I've invented for this is "virtual zero". There may be a more scholarly term for it. Or I may be wrong. If the latter, correction / enlightenment most welcome.
 
Rigby5 said:
I do not believe that "any advantage ... will disappear".
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The experts employed by IOC and NCAA don't agree with you.

Like Lia Thomas, they are over a foot taller, and likely over 50 lbs heavier.
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So we shouldn't let abnormally tall women compete?

The only mitigating facts are that I have seen some female athletes that also have larger bone structure, high twitch muscle, and a need to shave.
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So if Lia Thomas shouldn't be allowed to compete what about these women? Why should they be allowed to compete if the only reason to object to Ms Thomas is because of her bone structure and musculature?
 
Shiftless2 said:
The experts employed by IOC and NCAA don't agree with you.


So we shouldn't let abnormally tall women compete?


So if Lia Thomas shouldn't be allowed to compete what about these women? Why should they be allowed to compete if the only reason to object to Ms Thomas is because of her bone structure and musculature?
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Actually, the real question is whether tall women with high twitch muscles should be allowed to compete with women?
It does not matter what the source of excess testosterone was.
 
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