What to call this thread?

[sear]

"Actually, the real question is whether tall women with high twitch muscles should be allowed to compete with women?" R5 #1,200

If that's the question, my answer is absolutely yes, IF
their exceptional gift is natural. BUT

if it's artificial, then we open the door to a competition not of athleticism, but of bio-engineering.

That's fine. BUT !

Let's at least have the integrity to call it what it is, not to parade it as ostensibly fair competition.

"It does not matter what the source of excess testosterone was." R5 #1,200

You really want to introduce that slippery slope into athletic competition, including the Olympics? How about the NFL, NHL, & ... ?

 

[Rigby5]

If that's the question, my answer is absolutely yes, IF
their exceptional gift is natural. BUT

if it's artificial, then we open the door to a competition not of athleticism, but of bio-engineering.

That's fine. BUT !

Let's at least have the integrity to call it what it is, not to parade it as ostensibly fair competition.


You really want to introduce that slippery slope into athletic competition, including the Olympics? How about the NFL, NHL, & ... ?

The male Y chromosome is falling apart.
They say in some period of time, it will disappear completely.

In the mean time, fragments of the Y chromosome sometimes get appended to the X chromosome.
This is what leads to hermaphrodites being born.
So then if a person has fragments of the Y chromosome, are they really a woman?

Is it fair to women to allow someone with so much testosterone to compete against women, even if "natural"?

 

[Shiftless2]

One cause for mental reservation: Lance Armstrong

He's an interesting case - fact is, he was never caught - one of his teammates ratted him out hoping for a lesser penalty.

That said, cycling is arguably the dirtiest sport out there.

 

[sear]

"The male Y chromosome is falling apart.
They say in some period of time, it will disappear completely." R5 #1,202

And with it, the human race.

"So then if a person has fragments of the Y chromosome, are they really a woman?
Is it fair to women to allow someone with so much testosterone to compete against women, even if "natural"?" R5 #1,202

Isn't the premise of such competition that it is fair?
What's fair about having one nation having to pole-vault 10 feet, while a competing nation must vault 15 feet?

The premise of your position is conspicuously silly. The notion that all humans are identical in all ways is beyond ridiculous.
Some may have superior intellects, and thus may thrive in chess competition.

Others excel at sprinting, or cross-country, or ...

So where should we draw the line? It seems, until a superior upgrade is available, we draw the line at the distinction between what is natural, and what is artificial.

 

[Shiftless2]

Actually, the real question is whether tall women with high twitch muscles should be allowed to compete with women?
It does not matter what the source of excess testosterone was.

They've already banned a number of cis women because their natural testosterone levels were too high. I'm sure it was just a coincidence that they were all black.

And where men are concerned, nobody cares what their T-levels are - the only concern is that they don't come out of a bottle.

But that brings us back to Michael Phelps

 

[Rigby5]

And with it, the human race.


Isn't the premise of such competition that it is fair?
What's fair about having one nation having to pole-vault 10 feet, while a competing nation must vault 15 feet?

The premise of your position is conspicuously silly. The notion that all humans are identical in all ways is beyond ridiculous.
Some may have superior intellects, and thus may thrive in chess competition.

Others excel at sprinting, or cross-country, or ...

So where should we draw the line? It seems, until a superior upgrade is available, we draw the line at the distinction between what is natural, and what is artificial.

Oddly enough, they say the end of the Y chromosome is not likely the end of humans.
They say it will take so many millions of year, something else will evolve, like parthenogenesis.

Technically males and females really are like 2 different species, and you would not want a horse to be allowed in a dog race.
Even though hermaphrodites that are female but then also have a Y chromosome fragment, are not at fault and it is not artificial, I don't think you still want to let them compete with females that do not have this advantage?

 

[Rigby5]

And with it, the human race.


Isn't the premise of such competition that it is fair?
What's fair about having one nation having to pole-vault 10 feet, while a competing nation must vault 15 feet?

The premise of your position is conspicuously silly. The notion that all humans are identical in all ways is beyond ridiculous.
Some may have superior intellects, and thus may thrive in chess competition.

Others excel at sprinting, or cross-country, or ...

So where should we draw the line? It seems, until a superior upgrade is available, we draw the line at the distinction between what is natural, and what is artificial.

Both women and men are natural and not artificial, but we do not allow men to compete with women or women to compete with men.

 

[Shiftless2]

Both women and men are natural and not artificial, but we do not allow men to compete with women or women to compete with men.

Before we continue maybe you should begin by defining a woman.

We'll wait.

 

[sear]

" cycling is arguably the dirtiest sport out there." S2 #1,203

Because they compete sitting down? No sniffing !

"Both women and men are natural and not artificial, but we do not allow men to compete with women or women to compete with men." R5 #1,207

Obviously.
And that's why each sex competes against other like-gendered athletes, provided such competitors are also natural, within limits. We often make exceptions for dental fillings, etc.

"Before we continue maybe you should begin by defining a woman." S2 #1,208

Thank you S2.

wom·an (wmən)
n. pl. wom·en(wĭmĭn)
1. An adult female human.
[Middle English, from Old English wimman, variant of wīfman : wīf, woman + man, person; see MAN.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition copyright ©2022 by HarperCollins Publishers. All rights reserved.

 

[Shiftless2]

wom·an (wmən)
n. pl. wom·en(wĭmĭn)
1. An adult female human.
[Middle English, from Old English wimman, variant of wīfman : wīf, woman + man, person; see MAN.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition copyright ©2022 by HarperCollins Publishers. All rights reserved.

All that says is that a woman is a woman.

 

[Rigby5]

Before we continue maybe you should begin by defining a woman.

We'll wait.

It does not matter how we define man or woman.
The point is that Sear was suggesting that the deciding factor on being able to compete or not was based on natural vs artificial.
{...
If that's the question, my answer is absolutely yes, IF
their exceptional gift is natural. BUT

if it's artificial, then we open the door to a competition not of athleticism, but of bio-engineering.
...}
And my point is just that I am disagreeing with that, since both male and female are natural, but still you do not want them in the same competition.

In fact, we use artificial hormones in order to make trans more fair.

 

[Shiftless2]

And my point is just that I am disagreeing with that, since both male and female are natural, but still you do not want them in the same competition.

So define a woman - and do it in such a manner as to exclude all transwomen without excluding significant numbers of ciswomen.

 

[Rigby5]

So define a woman - and do it in such a manner as to exclude all transwomen without excluding significant numbers of ciswomen.

Again, it does not matter, since that is not the goal, which is to make the competition based on acquired traits by effort instead of by birth or artificial means.

 

[Shiftless2]

Again, it does not matter, since that is not the goal, which is to make the competition based on acquired traits by effort instead of by birth or artificial means.

So being a man or a woman isn't based on birth???