What to call this thread?

[Shiftless2]

Either way Williams seemed to me to be addressing the issue of "detransitioners". Reversing the reversal.

As is the case with any procedure there will always be a small number of people who regret their decision. But in reality, the number of "detransitioners" is actually very small. Recent studies put the numbers at well under 1% and one longitudinal study was unable to find anyone who regretted it.

In the 1950's my Mom had a pair of blue jeans. It might have seemed too butch for her to wear men's trousers.
But the zipper on her jeans was on the hip.

Much more recent than that it was pretty much the norm that women's slacks had the zipper on the side or even the back

 

[sear]

"As is the case with any procedure there will always be a small number of people who regret their decision. But ..." S2 #441

Bottom line:
SOMEone will make the decision.

In reproductive rights it's the patient that should make the final decision.
I know of no compelling reason we should deny the patient the final decision in this case.

But in my lack of understanding about the <1% [#441] seems prudent to me treatment which results in significant change should be entered into as an informed decision.
That applies with choice as well, just as important, but perhaps substantially more obvious.

I would consider it civilized if those considering such medical treatment demonstrate at minimum a basic understanding of the issues involved in their options, risks, and consequences.
That might not make much sense out of context.
In a laissez-faire society & culture individual citizens might be more practiced at individual self-governance.
We're very far from there.
- Government school or substitute mandatory.
- Can't get a learner's permit until 16.
- Can't drink until 18, or 21.
- What other drugs / herbs / fungi are permissible,
- etc
Thus in context of this deeply entrenched government parentalization, it seems cruel, perhaps even treacherous to toss patients to the wolves on this issue.

You tell me which is potentially more consequential:
- converting genitalia from one sex to the other, or
- enjoying half a glass of wine at the Thanksgiving banquet.

I'm not Christian.
I'm surely not Catholic. BUT !!
A decade or two ago I learned of a premarital training program run by the Catholic Church. By the name of it I assumed it was horrid.
But I believe it's fabulous, just basic tools for understanding one's betrothed, for example:
- The next paycheck is 5 days away. Once rent and utilities bills are paid there won't be much left.
The baby has outgrown his clothes.
What do you spend the remainder of the paycheck on?
Some clothes the baby can actually wear, buy some food so the kitchen cupboards aren't bare, & save a $little for emergency?
Or buy the flat panel TV now that the 40% discount is available.

It's horrifying how few couples are on the same page about such decisions. Best that they know before it's too late.

The Catholic Church are the people who told Henry VIII when he wanted to get a divorce you can’t divorce her but if you'd like to cut off her head we’re OK with that. Bill Maher

 

[Shiftless2]

But in my lack of understanding about the <1% [#441] seems prudent to me treatment which results in significant change should be entered into as an informed decision.

It is - this sort of decision isn't made in a vacuum - the individual is being monitored by a team of doctors and psychologists. And in most cases has lived as their correct gender for years before deciding to proceed.

 

[sear]

- the individual is being monitored by a team of doctors and psychologists.

Not clear to me what if any role they play in "detransitioners".

One of two things is true.
a) Everything is fine. No need to change a thing. Or
b) while enormous improvements have been made making possible what a few generations ago was impossible,
there's still room for further improvement.

If "a" then why this thread?
And therefore since evidently "b", what further improvement?

There may be multiple objectives. But it seems to me I'd support reducing the detransitioner population, among the broader transitioned population.

And in most cases has lived as their correct gender for years before deciding to proceed.

Is there room for improvement?

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man tries to adapt the world to himself. Thus progress depends upon the unreasonable. George Bernard Shaw

Perhaps unrealistic in the short term, but perhaps synergistically beneficial long-term,
rather than adapting the individual to the binary culture,
I suspect the more enlightened approach would be to update the culture to a new & improved multi-nary society, nation, world.

 

[sear]

Hundreds of troops kicked out under 'don't ask, don't tell' get upgraded to honorable discharges​

TARA COPP / Tue, October 15, 2024 at 6:16 PM EDT
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Pentagon announced Tuesday that more than 800 military personnel have seen their service records upgraded to honorable discharges after previously being kicked out of the military under its former “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy.
It is the latest development over the decades to undo past discrimination against LGBTQ service members.
The 1951 Uniform Code of Military Justice's Article 125 had criminalized consensual gay sex. In 1993, former President Bill Clinton modified the military's policy to “don’t ask, don’t tell,” which allowed LGBTQ troops to serve in the armed forces if they didn’t disclose their sexual orientation.

That policy was repealed in 2011, when Congress allowed for their open service in the military. The 1951 UCMJ code was modified in 2013 to be limited to nonconsensual gay sex.
President Joe Biden in June announced he was issuing pardons to service members convicted under repealed military policies.
Under “don't ask, don't tell,” thousands of service members still saw their military service ended without an honorable discharge, meaning they did not receive the military benefits they would have otherwise, such as education benefits, and it also could have affected their ability to apply for jobs or loans.
Last year, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin ordered a review of cases of former service members who might have been affected by the policy.
The Pentagon estimates about 13,500 service members in total were released from military service under “don't ask, don't tell.” With the review and upgrades of the more than 800 troops announced Tuesday, the Pentagon said that about 96% of the 13,500 personnel affected by the policy now have received an honorable discharge.
Not every case of the 13,500 needed review — some of those personnel either did not serve long enough to qualify for benefits, they were released with an honorable discharge at the time, they already had their discharges upgraded through other means, or they did not qualify for an upgrade due to other violations.
“We will continue to honor the service and the sacrifice of all our troops — including the brave Americans who raised their hands to serve but were turned away because of whom they love. We will continue to strive to do right by every American patriot who has honorably served their country,” Austin said in a statement.

Hundreds of troops kicked out under 'don't ask, don't tell' get upgraded to honorable discharges

The Pentagon announced Tuesday that more than 800 military personnel have seen their service records upgraded to honorable discharges after previously being kicked out of the military under its former “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. It is the latest development over the decades to undo past...

news.yahoo.com

Fine.
President Nixon was criticized for U.S. military conscription to fight in the U.S. War in Vietnam. Citizens could be drafted at age 18, but couldn't vote against the War until age 21, or even enjoy a glass of wine at Thanksgiving feast.
The drinking age dropped from 21 to 18, U.S. military conscription was indefinitely suspended, and the voting age lowered from age 21 to age 18.

Change precipitates change.
Will prospective enlistees straddling the homophobia fence opt out, for this - coddling - ? Meaning, recruitment shortfalls increase?
Or decrease?
Or remain relatively unaffected?

Can we rule out the possibility "Don't Ask / Don't Tell" a Clinton [D] administration policy, and this new announcement during the Biden [D] administration [post #445] do what is right? "Big Tent"? "United we stand ..."? e pluribus unum

 

[Shiftless2]

The drinking age dropped from 21 to 18 ...

When I was growing up in Southern Ontario, the drinking age in NY State was 18 (it was 21 in Ontario). We used to cross the border to Buffalo or Niagara to drink. Ontario lowered the drinking age to 18 in 1971 (raised it to 19 a few years later) but the US increased the drinking age to 21. Now US students cross the border to Canada.

 

[sear]

When I was growing up in Southern Ontario, the drinking age in NY State was 18 (it was 21 in Ontario). We used to cross the border to Buffalo or Niagara to drink. Ontario lowered the drinking age to 18 in 1971 (raised it to 19 a few years later) but the US increased the drinking age to 21. Now US students cross the border to Canada.

The New York State drinking age was 18 when I was 17. I and posse celebrated Saturday nights at the Steak & Brew, the Tumble Inn, etc.
Turning 18 took the fun out of it, so I went to nearby New Jersey where the drinking age was 21.

I'm over 21 times three, haven't touched a drop in years.

The distinction in law was made millennia ago:

malum in se: evil; wrong by itself. Example: murder

malum prohibitum: wrong by prohibition. Example: having half a glass of wine at dinner a week before your 21st birthday

So much for the "one size fits all" approach to law enforcement.

 

[sear]

Transgender models featured in Victoria’s Secret Fashion Show​

Valentina Sampaio and Alex Consani made history at the iconic fashion show, which returned Tuesday after a six-year hiatus.

Oct. 16, 2024, 1:42 PM GMT-5 / By Matt Lavietes
Models Valentina Sampaio and Alex Consani strutted down the runway at the Victoria’s Secret Fashion Show in New York City on Tuesday, becoming the first transgender women to walk in the iconic fashion show.

Transgender models featured in Victoria’s Secret Fashion Show

Valentina Sampaio and Alex Consani made history at the iconic fashion show, which returned Tuesday after a six-year hiatus.

www.nbcnews.com

It's complicated.
Gay men may be disproportionately represented in women's fashions. Nope, still not sure why.
The fashion world has featured "Heroin Chic" for decades. The cliche' is, scrawny models are useful for presenting new fashions, because these artistic creations look best on the hanger.
There's big $money in high fashion, suggesting the choice of transgender models was neither casual, nor inadvertent. "Who are you wearing?" heard on Hollywood red carpet.

The civil rights angle should not be overlooked. The above article continues:

“The Victoria’s Secret family has shown the world that being trans is just as exceptional and beautiful as anyone else on that runway,” the 27-year-old Brazilian wrote. “Inclusivity is crucial to the world we’re building, and I’m honored to walk with pride, love, and the hope of inspiring the next generation.”

Transgender models featured in Victoria’s Secret Fashion Show

Valentina Sampaio and Alex Consani made history at the iconic fashion show, which returned Tuesday after a six-year hiatus.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Shiftless2]

From 2017

'Playboy' features model Ines Rau as first transgender Playmate​

'Playboy' features model Ines Rau as first transgender Playmate

Ines Rau, 26, will be the centerfold in the first issue to publish since 'Playboy's founder Hugh Hefner died in September.

www.usatoday.com

And in 1981

And in 1981, Caroline (Tula) Cossey, a transgender English model, appeared in a Playboy pictorial for the James Bond film “For Your Eyes Only” alongside other Bond girls

Playboy's First Transgender Model - Brittany J. Rosario

Before Caitlyn Jenner, Laverne Cox and Amanda Simpson, there was Caroline “Tula” Cossey. She was a striking 6-foot-tall British model whose face graced magazine covers and was displayed in national ad campaigns for vodka and lingerie in the late 1970s. Tula debuted as a Bond girl in For Your...

brittanyjrosario.com

Nobody knew until she was outed by a British tabloid.

 

[sear]

Playboy features model Ines Rau as first transgender Playmate #449

I'd imagined beauty pageants were venues for the rich, convenience shortcuts to help find attractive young women ... what Kurtis Sliwa called "The urge to merge."

Separately, individuals might feel out of sync if anatomically the opposite of their own Natural mindset.
Revising the anatomical complement is a modern miracle.

Is there a logical connection to then, after transition, seeking public recognition for it?

 

[Shiftless2]

Nobody knew that Caroline (Tula) Cossey was trans until a UK tabloid outed her.

 

[sear]

"Nobody knew that Caroline (Tula) Cossey was trans until a UK tabloid outed her." S2 #451

The other (unspoken) side of that coin, others are more obvious.
I don't have any issue with that (no any aspirations so far).

Still seems like a piece of the puzzle is missing here. It seems I'm too hetero. I would not wish to be a fashion model. Not pre-op. Not post-op.

 

[Shiftless2]

 

[sear]

JE #453

“Adversity doesn’t test your character, it reveals it.” U.S. President Bush (the elder)

Yes by George. And while it's an exaggeration to assert - adversity that doesn't kill us makes us stronger -
there are indications those accustomed to circumventing adversities develop that skill.

And Josh,
vulgar vocabulary rarely renders an opinion more persuasive. It may seem emphatic.
But deliberate vulgarity undermines the character of those that use it, and thus, directly undermines the validity of their opinion.

 

[Shiftless2]

That hardly qualifies as vulgar.

 

[Shiftless2]

 

[sear]

That hardly qualifies as vulgar. #455

I thought that was explicit disclosure of cliche vulgarity, straight from the dumpster behind the bowling alley.
"boink" is better, but nothing is better still. "Silence never makes mistakes." Hindu proverb
Instead of locker-room scent-marking, try discussing something else ... politics perhaps. Admittedly usually dull, but embellish like mad, and it may make it seem important. Even perhaps, consequential.

 

[Shiftless2]

You get to help decide whether or not those fears are justified on Tuesday

 

[sear]

You get to help decide whether or not those fears are justified on Tuesday

"If you can't understand why your trans friend is scared right now, then you don't have a trans friend ..." #458

Fine.
BUT !

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." Thomas Paine

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out- because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists,and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak out for me." pastor Martin Niemöller


Those that want their own rights protected, preserved are obliged to attend to those whose rights are threatened. And on November 5, 2024
fundamental healthcare rights of a majority of the population are at severe, potentially lethal risk.

Be a hero.
Vote Harris / Walz day after tomorrow, November 5, 2024. And then prepare for the celebration.

 

[Shiftless2]

Be a hero.
Vote Harris / Walz day after tomorrow, November 5, 2024. And then prepare for the celebration.

This