Putin, Ukraine, and what next?
- Thread starter sear
- Start date
The terrible news continues flowing in. It leaves me to wonder:
we already know Putin is suppressing war news. Penalties for such challenge to Putin include 15 year prison sentence, or being sent to the battlefront.
What do you suppose Russia's troops have been told?
It would seem either they're as monstrous as Putin, or Putin's troops have been told whatever causes them to commit these war-crimes.
Russian aircraft are being shot down. Not sure if interrogating any Russian prisoners has produced any revelations.
we already know Putin is suppressing war news. Penalties for such challenge to Putin include 15 year prison sentence, or being sent to the battlefront.
What do you suppose Russia's troops have been told?
It would seem either they're as monstrous as Putin, or Putin's troops have been told whatever causes them to commit these war-crimes.
Russian aircraft are being shot down. Not sure if interrogating any Russian prisoners has produced any revelations.
Isn't Putin 70? Not sure how much longer he'll be the big cheese.
Regarding Russian gas:
I'd read the brand new pipeline laid under water had been completed and awaited certification, which evidently is suspended indefinitely.
It's an alarming reality, told with brutal pragmatism.
Let us hope we don't meet them in the classroom.
Again as I posted, I don't think that Putin is Mad in the technical sense. He is "consumed with his own importance", which is reinforced with having a "upper Government" of "yes" men. But things from reading my News Paper today are not going his way, and what was in his and his underlings view, was a "push over" taking just a couple of days to achieve will take a great deal longer in crushing the Ukraine people. That leads to a more worrying situation, namely the threat of using Nuclear weapons. So if he is not successful in crushing the Ukraine spirt he will again threaten to use them. I'm minded of the statement by Isoroku Yamamoto commander of Japans Fleet after the Bombing if Pearl Harbour " I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve" Putin could again threaten to use the weapons if the West does not stop sending weapons etx, to Ukraine
"I don't think that Putin is Mad in the technical sense." W #25
We can agree, Putin probably usually dons his own trousers zipper side front. Unfortunately there's more to being adequately stable than figuring out the complexity of pants.
Here's what American Heritage Dictionary has to say:
The OED is revered as the Gold standard of English language dictionaries.
I'm not playing coy here W. I believe I understand your above quoted assertion.
But at some level of carnage, at some level of destructive monstrosity, it simply tests definitions to call Putin something other than mad.
"Putin could again threaten to use the weapons if the West does not stop sending weapons etx, to Ukraine" W #15
Putin will surely pay attention in precise detail how the world reacts. If any sign is given that there's a possible scenario where such carnage can benefit Putin / Russia in the long term, it's sure to continue.
We tried to appease Hitler. Lookit what happened.
Any rational reason to believe a different standard applies to Putin?
Of course I agree about the threat of Russian nuclear escalation.
That raises the question: for Putin, is the principle he's operating under: - global domination, or defeat and global genocide - ?
If Putin is only partly mad, the survival question is: is Putin mad enough to terminate civilization if he doesn't get his megalomaniacal way?
If you are right, if Putin is indeed not mad, perhaps we need not worry about that. BUT !!
If Putin is mad enough, we may already have witnessed the beginning of the end of humanity.
More than a half dozen U.S. Secret Service officers on Thursday took two men into custody from a car in Washington's Georgetown neighborhood and removed what seemed to be an assault-style rifle from the vehicle, a Reuters witness said. The vehicle was a black four-door Ford sedan with Indiana plates that said Marine Corps Veteran. The Washington Post reported that the two arrested men told police they had driven from Indiana to volunteer to fight in the war in Ukraine.
It's essentially a manned high-powered Gatling gun. The pilot rides in a Titanium bathtub to protect from small arms ground-fire.
No enemy of the U.S. likes this weapon.
We can agree, Putin probably usually dons his own trousers zipper side front. Unfortunately there's more to being adequately stable than figuring out the complexity of pants.
Here's what American Heritage Dictionary has to say:
BUT !!Lacking restraint or reason
Exhibiting uncharacteristic aggressiveness
The American Heritage Dictionary entry: mad
The American Heritage Dictionary entry: madahdictionary.com
The OED is revered as the Gold standard of English language dictionaries.
Not sure if I'm a subscriber or not. If you are, you're welcome to reprise OED's definition of "mad" here.
I'm not playing coy here W. I believe I understand your above quoted assertion.
But at some level of carnage, at some level of destructive monstrosity, it simply tests definitions to call Putin something other than mad.
"Putin could again threaten to use the weapons if the West does not stop sending weapons etx, to Ukraine" W #15
Putin will surely pay attention in precise detail how the world reacts. If any sign is given that there's a possible scenario where such carnage can benefit Putin / Russia in the long term, it's sure to continue.
We tried to appease Hitler. Lookit what happened.
Any rational reason to believe a different standard applies to Putin?
Of course I agree about the threat of Russian nuclear escalation.
That raises the question: for Putin, is the principle he's operating under: - global domination, or defeat and global genocide - ?
If Putin is only partly mad, the survival question is: is Putin mad enough to terminate civilization if he doesn't get his megalomaniacal way?
If you are right, if Putin is indeed not mad, perhaps we need not worry about that. BUT !!
If Putin is mad enough, we may already have witnessed the beginning of the end of humanity.
More than a half dozen U.S. Secret Service officers on Thursday took two men into custody from a car in Washington's Georgetown neighborhood and removed what seemed to be an assault-style rifle from the vehicle, a Reuters witness said. The vehicle was a black four-door Ford sedan with Indiana plates that said Marine Corps Veteran. The Washington Post reported that the two arrested men told police they had driven from Indiana to volunteer to fight in the war in Ukraine.
World
Defense News
Transfer three A-10 aircraft squadrons to Ukraine now
This aircraft and its gun system were designed to counter an armored assault in Europe. They proved effective in Desert Storm’s target-rich environment, quite similar to the current advancing Russian force.
It's essentially a manned high-powered Gatling gun. The pilot rides in a Titanium bathtub to protect from small arms ground-fire.
No enemy of the U.S. likes this weapon.
Having just "looked" up the meaning of "Mad" it seems to cover a whole range of possibility's. So I would settle for in Putin's case, a person who has a deranged spirit, which has been modelled on the thirst for Power over his fellows. This can result in a sort Blind vision as to "I will save the World" type thinking.
He will only respect an equal, when the other person "projects" a similar personality. In this tired world we have seen a number of others who have risen and then fallen. It must be remembered that 95% of the population of this world is inept, Leaderless, there fore when a person with a vision or purpose "comes along" they are greeted as a sort God.
However on todays News more people are "standing and protesting " in Russia, and this could spread when or if a "Figure" was to immerge to lead. Not very lightly at this time but it could happen.
The Russian force in Ukraine is now resulting to brute force because as posted the Ukraine people are becoming more resistant and united.
So looking into that Crystal Ball, as more and more pressure is placed on Putin from not only the World but his own people, some of those "Yes" men who surround him could start to feel "so where is the Exit".
p.p.s." Delusions of Grandeur" comes to mind
He will only respect an equal, when the other person "projects" a similar personality. In this tired world we have seen a number of others who have risen and then fallen. It must be remembered that 95% of the population of this world is inept, Leaderless, there fore when a person with a vision or purpose "comes along" they are greeted as a sort God.
However on todays News more people are "standing and protesting " in Russia, and this could spread when or if a "Figure" was to immerge to lead. Not very lightly at this time but it could happen.
The Russian force in Ukraine is now resulting to brute force because as posted the Ukraine people are becoming more resistant and united.
So looking into that Crystal Ball, as more and more pressure is placed on Putin from not only the World but his own people, some of those "Yes" men who surround him could start to feel "so where is the Exit".
p.p.s." Delusions of Grandeur" comes to mind
Last edited:
Putin's a mental case, whatever the precise diagnosis.
I heard an interesting radio report earlier this afternoon. That report asserted Putin believed four things before he ordered his troops across the border:
a) That Putin had enough cash reserve to weather the sanctions against him.
b) Ukraine was weak, and would not offer much resistance.
c) That the E.U. & NATO were intrinsically ununified, and wouldn't coordinate against the Russian invasion. &
d) if forget
The report claimed Putin was wrong on all four basic assumptions, and that now Putin is in a sullen mood, as his troops founder in the field.
I believe the opposite is true. When Ukrainian survivors of the Russian onslaught see what a monstrous enemy they battle, more likely that such atrocities steel the resolve of Ukraine's native defenders.
I heard an interesting radio report earlier this afternoon. That report asserted Putin believed four things before he ordered his troops across the border:
a) That Putin had enough cash reserve to weather the sanctions against him.
b) Ukraine was weak, and would not offer much resistance.
c) That the E.U. & NATO were intrinsically ununified, and wouldn't coordinate against the Russian invasion. &
d) if forget
The report claimed Putin was wrong on all four basic assumptions, and that now Putin is in a sullen mood, as his troops founder in the field.
I suspect fools like Putin resort to such war crimes in the delusional belief that it will "break the spirit" of the Ukrainian People, and expedite Putin's conquest.
I believe the opposite is true. When Ukrainian survivors of the Russian onslaught see what a monstrous enemy they battle, more likely that such atrocities steel the resolve of Ukraine's native defenders.
I agree, but what we are seeing is a almost frantic rush by the Russians / Putin, in Ukraine to "bomb or shell" anything. Report in the last Hour the Russians have bombed a children's hospital. In all Wars the innocents take most of "Hits" but this War is getting dare I say "Fanatical". Putin is not Mad (as posted) but he is obsessed with bring his Russia back to a time when Starlin controlled, an Empire building Fanatic. But, what if the "Yes Men/Women" he has round him may yet see a Horror developing which they are being caught up in. Plus there does seem more and more demonstrations in Russian Cities and we should forget the Police are not as ours they thump first and direct next.
Some reports from Ukraine indicate Putin's war is not going as he'd hoped / intended.
Reportedly Putin is depressed about it, and may therefore be at greater risk of doing something out of anger that humanity will regret. Putin has ALREADY changed the world as we know it. But if Putin's fragile male ego results in Putin lashing out against the world in anger, with nuclear weapons, the human population of this solar system may plummet.
I don't plan to worry about it.
Reportedly Putin is depressed about it, and may therefore be at greater risk of doing something out of anger that humanity will regret. Putin has ALREADY changed the world as we know it. But if Putin's fragile male ego results in Putin lashing out against the world in anger, with nuclear weapons, the human population of this solar system may plummet.
I don't plan to worry about it.
Rampage
Member
It bears at least the superficial appearance of NATO / Western cowardice.
Biden doesn't want to impose a no-fly zone over Ukraine, for fear Putin will expand the war.
It seems like much of the world, most of the world is unified in opposition to Russia regarding this invasion. In the U.N. vote Russia got a few, but only a few supporting votes. North Korea for example.
Apparently the position the West has taken is to attempt to not give Putin an excuse to expand the War beyond Ukraine. Perhaps that is to avoid spilling NATO blood for a non-NATO member nation.
Is there no middle ground? Could NATO not solicit volunteers?
Whatever the explanation, it bears the appearance of NATO cowering from the Russian bear.
There's no more extravagant waste than a 2nd rate military. Gen. Horner
Let us all hope, if Putin continues, we have the capacity to smack him down, if not snuff him out.
Biden doesn't want to impose a no-fly zone over Ukraine, for fear Putin will expand the war. Rampage
But Putin will "expand the War. After seeing the growing mess the West is making of this War, Putin who is as quoted, just following what Starlin did. Least we forget at the start of the Second World War Starlin and Hitler were in talks and possibly collusion, it was only when Germany invaded Russia that Starlin turned to the West for Help.
What we are seeing IMHO is Dictator (Putin) showing his real colours, which he has been hiding under the guise of being normal and wanting every one to share the Natural resources of Russia, and we in the West have been "hood winked". Now he his showing his real colours which as posted is wanting to re-erect the old Warsaw Pack and the old Soviet Russia, U.S.S.R.
How the present War with Ukraine will end is "guess work".
Today I read that he Putin is contemplating using Chemical weapons. If he does, what should with immediate effect happen we issue the Ukraine fighters the same Weapons to use against the invading Russians. It could bring about a World War but I think we have seen Putin is not open to any concessions all he wants is to take Ukraine what ever the cost.
Another News item was that his Army is being reinforced with Syrian fighters and others, because the Men is army which is made up of young conscripts who have had enough so they being "shipped home".
But Putin will "expand the War. After seeing the growing mess the West is making of this War, Putin who is as quoted, just following what Starlin did. Least we forget at the start of the Second World War Starlin and Hitler were in talks and possibly collusion, it was only when Germany invaded Russia that Starlin turned to the West for Help.
What we are seeing IMHO is Dictator (Putin) showing his real colours, which he has been hiding under the guise of being normal and wanting every one to share the Natural resources of Russia, and we in the West have been "hood winked". Now he his showing his real colours which as posted is wanting to re-erect the old Warsaw Pack and the old Soviet Russia, U.S.S.R.
How the present War with Ukraine will end is "guess work".
Today I read that he Putin is contemplating using Chemical weapons. If he does, what should with immediate effect happen we issue the Ukraine fighters the same Weapons to use against the invading Russians. It could bring about a World War but I think we have seen Putin is not open to any concessions all he wants is to take Ukraine what ever the cost.
Another News item was that his Army is being reinforced with Syrian fighters and others, because the Men is army which is made up of young conscripts who have had enough so they being "shipped home".
I've wondered about what Russia's forces in Ukraine have been told. How could they not know they're firing on civilians?
Putin does not impress me. I think he's a simple barbarian.
R #31
It seems volunteers are filtering into Ukraine to offer their support. No telling how many (if any) will survive.
Rampage
Member
Meanwhile, Putin seems to have believed his adventure in Ukraine would be a push-over. Evidently Putin expected NATO member nations to be divided. We're not.
Putin seems to have thought Ukraine would be a push-over. It's not. Is this the start of week #3?
So rather than sobering up, Putin seems to be considering use of chemical WMD, or other escalation to help him achieve this ridiculous objective.
The U.S. seems (demonstrated by multiple examples) to war more than necessary, and occasionally where inappropriate. It doesn't "balance it out" to then neglect action when it has the capacity to "vote" on such carnage.
Sadly, U.S. hands are stained with the blood of humanity at both ends of that spectrum. For the record, two wrongs do not make a right.
Putin seems to have thought Ukraine would be a push-over. It's not. Is this the start of week #3?
So rather than sobering up, Putin seems to be considering use of chemical WMD, or other escalation to help him achieve this ridiculous objective.
The U.S. seems (demonstrated by multiple examples) to war more than necessary, and occasionally where inappropriate. It doesn't "balance it out" to then neglect action when it has the capacity to "vote" on such carnage.
Sadly, U.S. hands are stained with the blood of humanity at both ends of that spectrum. For the record, two wrongs do not make a right.
Sadly, U.S. hands are stained with the blood of humanity at both ends of that spectrum. For the record, two wrongs do not make a right Rampage.
"On the Button" but include the UK and the rest of Europe.
I did post a while ago "depends how long", and the problem with Putin's gamble it's going on far to long, and the sanctions he seems to think he will be able to "shake off" will and have started to bite. Russia is facing a near close down on being able to transfer money from the many Banks outside Russia that he and his "crones" have store their wealth in. Also China is looking more distant as to his Invasion, stating in the UN "the War should be ended peacefully in Ukraine" , that's the first China has called it a war. So it now remains to be seen whether he Putin will bow to pressure or just chance his arm, my guess is he will carry on until Russia just runs out of money and then which could be so Humiliating, he will use the Red Button. But because the sanctions are becoming so deep and can as we are seeing "cripple Russia" it might be a turning point as to the World, "cross fingers".
There is another point., If as seems to be suggested he Putin allows Syrian Fighters to reinforce his troops, surely that will allow Soldiers from Europe to join the fight?
"On the Button" but include the UK and the rest of Europe.
I did post a while ago "depends how long", and the problem with Putin's gamble it's going on far to long, and the sanctions he seems to think he will be able to "shake off" will and have started to bite. Russia is facing a near close down on being able to transfer money from the many Banks outside Russia that he and his "crones" have store their wealth in. Also China is looking more distant as to his Invasion, stating in the UN "the War should be ended peacefully in Ukraine" , that's the first China has called it a war. So it now remains to be seen whether he Putin will bow to pressure or just chance his arm, my guess is he will carry on until Russia just runs out of money and then which could be so Humiliating, he will use the Red Button. But because the sanctions are becoming so deep and can as we are seeing "cripple Russia" it might be a turning point as to the World, "cross fingers".
There is another point., If as seems to be suggested he Putin allows Syrian Fighters to reinforce his troops, surely that will allow Soldiers from Europe to join the fight?
Rampage
Member
W #35
Not by government requirement, but by spontaneous decision several Western commercial operations such as McDonald's have suspended retail commercial operations in Russia.
Putin has warned them, either you get back to work, or Russia will seize those assets, and make them available to anyone that will operate them.
There's historic precedent for asset seizure. Too early to know how it plays out.
I think China's a wild-card in all this. China can't afford to turn its back on the world the way Russia can. Russia has little commercial involvement with the rest of the world, except for Stolichnaya vodka, and fossil fuel.
In contrast China has endeared itself to the product consuming Peoples of the world. In so doing China has intentionally or not integrated its own fate into the economic fate of the Western world.
None the less the mainland wants to assimilate an island or two. Will Putin / Ukraine embolden China / Hong Kong?
Related:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2022/03/07/stoli-vodka-rebrand-russia-ukraine/9408037002/
Not by government requirement, but by spontaneous decision several Western commercial operations such as McDonald's have suspended retail commercial operations in Russia.
Putin has warned them, either you get back to work, or Russia will seize those assets, and make them available to anyone that will operate them.
There's historic precedent for asset seizure. Too early to know how it plays out.
I think China's a wild-card in all this. China can't afford to turn its back on the world the way Russia can. Russia has little commercial involvement with the rest of the world, except for Stolichnaya vodka, and fossil fuel.
In contrast China has endeared itself to the product consuming Peoples of the world. In so doing China has intentionally or not integrated its own fate into the economic fate of the Western world.
None the less the mainland wants to assimilate an island or two. Will Putin / Ukraine embolden China / Hong Kong?
Related:
Stoli vodka rebrands, ends use of Stolichnaya amid Russia-Ukraine ...
4 days ago ... Stolichnaya vodka will now be known as Stoli because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The brand founder said he is opposed to Vladimir ...https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/food/2022/03/07/stoli-vodka-rebrand-russia-ukraine/9408037002/
The question then becomes: will Putin exhaust his ability to wage War in Ukraine before, or after Ukraine falls. Stay tuned.
I gather Chamberlain was a good man, but lacked the Machiavellian ruthlessness necessary to subdue a megalomaniac like Hitler. Reminds me of our President Carter, a very good man but not a very good president. titan
An important statement, and shows that to our cost, we sadly need Ruthless power to over come those that "Arm against us".
One question I'm left with: 6 months from now, as Russia tries to occupy Ukraine, what level of attrition will the Ukrainian insurgency impose on Russia? Sear
Now that is the "64 Dollar question". But if it takes Putin and his growing demoralised Army that long, many other pressures will or could be placed on his shoulders.
I have thought, after the first days of this invasion, and seeing the Ukraine's stand and fight this Army of Russia, and one assumes the plan was to totally destroy any resistance and finish this War within a couple of days, it's not going according to plan. That being so I now read today that one of Putin's top officials states "if the U.S.A. continues to supply weapons to Ukraine, the Kremlin has warned it will launch attacks on these convoys." This could at last bring N.A.T.O with "firing range" with all that entails.
An important statement, and shows that to our cost, we sadly need Ruthless power to over come those that "Arm against us".
One question I'm left with: 6 months from now, as Russia tries to occupy Ukraine, what level of attrition will the Ukrainian insurgency impose on Russia? Sear
Now that is the "64 Dollar question". But if it takes Putin and his growing demoralised Army that long, many other pressures will or could be placed on his shoulders.
I have thought, after the first days of this invasion, and seeing the Ukraine's stand and fight this Army of Russia, and one assumes the plan was to totally destroy any resistance and finish this War within a couple of days, it's not going according to plan. That being so I now read today that one of Putin's top officials states "if the U.S.A. continues to supply weapons to Ukraine, the Kremlin has warned it will launch attacks on these convoys." This could at last bring N.A.T.O with "firing range" with all that entails.
Reports of Russian missile attack near the Polish border. It needn't be deliberate. If the missile's guidance system malfunctions, that could be enough to bring NATO into it.
Biden has demonstrated his timidity by openly confessing his unwillingness to do anything that might be interpreted by Putin as provocative, starting what Biden calls "World War Three".
But reportedly Russia and Ukraine have negotiated no-fire corridors for innocent civilian refugees to escape the battle. BUT !! In those same reports, Russia then violates those agreements, and mows down the refugees.
So one suggestion has been made: have NATO enforce no-fly zones where Ukraine & Russia have already negotiated refugee safe corridors. So far that's reportedly a no-go.
Reports of Russian missile attack near the Polish border. It needn't be deliberate. If the missile's guidance system malfunctions, that could be enough to bring NATO into it. Sear
So very true, and further what say you that if it did happen and miss-guided missile did land in N.A.T.O. Territory, with lost of life, the Russians would with speed blame the Ukraine's.
China is viewing the situation with increasing concern, and as posted has started to call the invasion a War. Russia I understand has already "paid for" Syrian fighters to start to supplement it's own fighters, which seems again to suggest it's own Army is not up to the job.
Russia, again reading todays News is throwing everything into this battle bombing and shelling anything that moves. It could be at the end when ever that may occur Ukraine will be left with not much standing, then who picks up the cost to rebuild?
So very true, and further what say you that if it did happen and miss-guided missile did land in N.A.T.O. Territory, with lost of life, the Russians would with speed blame the Ukraine's.
China is viewing the situation with increasing concern, and as posted has started to call the invasion a War. Russia I understand has already "paid for" Syrian fighters to start to supplement it's own fighters, which seems again to suggest it's own Army is not up to the job.
Russia, again reading todays News is throwing everything into this battle bombing and shelling anything that moves. It could be at the end when ever that may occur Ukraine will be left with not much standing, then who picks up the cost to rebuild?
Can't squeeze blood from a grape.
With the $sanctions the globe is imposing on Russia, the nation of Russia may simply not have $enough to attend to its own survival, AND fund Ukraine's reconstruction.
The obvious would be to allow post-War Russia to continue to sell natural gas etc internationally, BUT !! Ukraine collects a set % of the revenue from such commerce, until reconstruction is complete, and completely paid for.
That might be arranged by the U.N.
There's some question about whether Russia would agree. BUT !! There are simple ways for it to be enforced. For example (with math simplified for convenience of example) if Russia sells $One $Million $Dollars worth of natural gas to Germany,
Germany doesn't pay the $1 $Mil to Russia.
Instead Germany follows the U.N. rule (whatever it is), and pays Russia only its share, $500K, and Germany pays the remaining $500K to Ukraine directly. That's a take it or leave it scenario for Russia.
I've read about the Syria thing. Still haven't figured it out.