The lowdown on the ~$1 $Billion Alex Jones Sandy Hook defamation jury award - where does free speech end, & criminal liability begin?
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mark mywords
Active member
I dont really wish to revisit this (covered at the start of the thread)
slander - the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation.
(libel is much the same only its written not spoken)
How did Jones comments damage reputations? almost everyone knew it was garbage from the get go so they probably had a better view of the victims reputation rather than worse one and among his followers they already thought that the victims were lying dirt bags looking to steal their guns so again no reputational harm done.
hate speech - abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation.
Was anything said by Jones abusive or threatening? were the victims members of one of those groups given special protection under the law?
(and dont get me started on that hobby horse!)
I dont claim to have heard every utterance Jones has made - my stomach isnt strong enough - but I dont think that I have heard him threatening or encouraging violence This basically boils down to Jones saying hurtful things and people being offended and if that is illegal (in the US) should it be?
m #42
I couldn't be dismissive of this concern m.
But I think the premise is, we don't proceed to step #8 before insuring step #7 has been properly satisfied.
Whether or not Jones actually violated the law is ABSOLUTELY a legitimate concern. BUT !!
I deduce from being at step #8 (metaphorically) that we cleared the step #2 & #3 criteria. Not sure how to verify it, but with labor-intensive sleuthing, don't have the patience for it near 7
M Sunday evening.
I couldn't be dismissive of this concern m.
But I think the premise is, we don't proceed to step #8 before insuring step #7 has been properly satisfied.
Whether or not Jones actually violated the law is ABSOLUTELY a legitimate concern. BUT !!
I deduce from being at step #8 (metaphorically) that we cleared the step #2 & #3 criteria. Not sure how to verify it, but with labor-intensive sleuthing, don't have the patience for it near 7
M Sunday evening.telling people that those dead children didn't exist, or were actors, or that they weren't shot and the parents lied fits all 3.
mark mywords
Active member
As I laid out above I disagree.
Certainly it was vile and hurtful but I dont agree that it was actionable (if it was illegal why is MTG and may others not in court?) but the court has ruled and any disagreement with it is moot
a lot of the monetary stuff will depend on the state statutes where the hearings are held. example-texas caps this type of award at $750K, i think, but if punitive damages are also awarded, that changes things. it's very confusing, i'm still researching the obscure laws involved.I don't get it.
I know Jones did wrong.
If he had to pay the full ~$1 $B out of pocket I might be a little more reassured by it.
That's not what's going on here.
That's all I got.
you have every right to disagree, i would never fault you for that. and with any luck, THIS case will lead to more of them, so that people like MTG do pay for their words. maybe some of this stuff will stop if people see that their words DO have to be paid for when they harm/ruin lives.
Which then raises the obvious question, why the trial.
Could part of that be the threats reported? In any case m #46 as b #47 mentions differences in law surely must be part of it. Complicating it further, some or much of that may be stare decisis precedent, rather than statute.
mark mywords
Active member
are you suggesting that innocent men never get tried or convicted?
this was as I recall a civil suit if you can find a lawyer willing to take your money you can sue for almost anything after that it is down to convincing a group of people too stupid to avoid jury service.
the (alleged) I have dealt with (see above the hypothetical news report)
If so, inadvertently. My intended meanings included that the premise of any trial taking place under any circumstance has met the legal requirements. Surely not in all cases, but particularly a show trial that has literal international attention and scrutiny, may be less likely to have bent rules in its pedigree.
You are right that in so doing I put the cart before the horse, that the facts of the issue must determine whether a particular law applies.
My a posteriori approach (it's an "induction" w/ a pasteriori, not a "deduction" itnit?) is of course premised on the notion that in this case the fact that it's there means it met the requirements of the law to put it there.
You're absolutely right m #50 that not every conviction is correct. That's beyond dispute, as some convictions have been overturned, others vacated by post conviction discovery of proof of innocence. BUT !!
I hope they are a minority (50% - 1) and I trust, a small minority.
Thus I premised my induction on the likelihood, not the exception. We're both aware that's not a certitude, but I hope a reasonable premise. But in matters of criminal justice, your cynicism even if unduly embarrassing may not be unduly warranted.
Shiftless2
Well-known member
Awarding is one thing. Collecting is another.
Alex Jones must pay $1.1 billion of Sandy Hook damages despite bankruptcy - court
Dietrich Knauth-Conspiracy theorist and a ll around piece of human shit Alex Jones cannot use his personal bankruptcy to escape paying at least $1.1 billion in defamation damages stemming from his repeated lies about the 2012 Sandy Hook elementary school massacre, a U.S. bankruptcy judge ruled Thursday.
Bankruptcy can be used to wipe out debts and legal judgments, but not if they result from "willful or malicious injury" caused by the debtor, according to a decision by U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Christopher Lopez in Houston, Texas.
Courts in Connecticut and Texas have already ruled that Jones intentionally defamed relatives of school children killed in the mass shooting, and they have ordered Jones to pay $1.5 billion in damages.
Lopez ruled that more than $1.1 billion of those verdicts, awarded for defamation and intentional infliction of emotional distress, cannot be wiped away in bankruptcy. But he ruled that ...
Alex Jones must pay $1.1 billion of Sandy Hook damages despite bankruptcy - court
NEW YORK (Reuters) -Conspiracy theorist Alex Jones cannot use his personal bankruptcy to escape paying at least $1.1 billion in defamation damages stemming from his repeated lies about the 2012 Sandy Hook elementary school massacre, a U.S. bankruptcy judge ruled Thursday. Bankruptcy can be used...
Ukraine, Hamas, the paralytic GOP, the headlines are awash with bad news. And then
and then
and then
we find a little glimmering nugget like this.
It's not enough to restore my faith in humanity. But on a Friday night, the glimmer is welcome. Problem is,
a) Unless AJ happens to have $1.1 $Billion lying around, he can't / won't pay. Therefore a Pyrrhic victory?
b) Therefore in practical terms what matters is what happens instead. Often, when a convict cannot $pay, prison time is served. How much time must a convict serve to satisfy a $1.1 $Billion obligation?
Count me a skeptic. I suspect Jones will shrug this off as inconsequential.
and then
and then
we find a little glimmering nugget like this.
It's not enough to restore my faith in humanity. But on a Friday night, the glimmer is welcome. Problem is,
a) Unless AJ happens to have $1.1 $Billion lying around, he can't / won't pay. Therefore a Pyrrhic victory?
b) Therefore in practical terms what matters is what happens instead. Often, when a convict cannot $pay, prison time is served. How much time must a convict serve to satisfy a $1.1 $Billion obligation?
Count me a skeptic. I suspect Jones will shrug this off as inconsequential.
Shiftless2
Well-known member
Sandy Hook families offer to settle Alex Jones' US$1.5 billion legal debt for a minimum of US$85 million
Sandy Hook families who won nearly US$1.5 billion in legal judgments against conspiracy theorist Alex Jones for calling the 2012 Connecticut school shooting a hoax have offered to settle that debt for only pennies on the dollar -- at least US$85 million over 10 years.The offer was made in Jones' personal bankruptcy case in Houston last week. In a legal filing, lawyers for the families said they believed the proposal was a viable way to help resolve the bankruptcy reorganization cases of both Jones and his company, Free Speech Systems.
But in the sharply worded document, the attorneys continued to accuse the Infowars host of failing to curb his personal spending and "extravagant lifestyle," failing to preserve the value of his holdings, refusing to sell assets and failing to produce certain financial documents.
"Jones has failed in every way to serve as the fiduciary mandated by the Bankruptcy Code in exchange for ....
Sandy Hook families offer to settle Alex Jones' US$1.5 billion legal debt for a minimum of US$85 million
Sandy Hook families who won nearly US$1.5 billion in legal judgments against conspiracy theorist Alex Jones for calling the 2012 Connecticut school shooting a hoax have offered to settle that debt for only pennies on the dollar -- at least US$85 million over 10 years.
If there are not additional stipulations on Jones, restricting future lies, looks like a bad deal. And if Jones / Free Speech Systems violate that, then what? Another law suit? Another $1.5 $Billion judgment?
Probably best to shut Jones down entirely. McD's is hiring.
Shiftless2
Well-known member
Alex Jones Estate Liquidation Gets Sandy Hook Families’ Vote
The families of Sandy Hook school shooting victims voted overwhelmingly in favor of a plan to wrap up Alex Jones’ bankruptcy proceedings by liquidating the right wing talk show host’s assets.
The article doesn't provide details of the agreement and it doesn't tell us how much he'll be left with - will he end up living in a cardboard box under a bridge?
Under a bridge is too classy a neighborhood for this guy.
Reminds me of the Harley joke:
Q: What's the difference between a Harley and a Hoover?
A: The position of the dirt-bag.
Shiftless2
Well-known member
I deliberately distinguish the Sandy Hook massacre from other crimes, even other massacres.
But a basic principle of civilization is proportioning punishment to the crime.
Is there a compelling reason to abandon that standard for Jones?
Shiftless2
Well-known member
Alex Jones' personal assets to be sold to pay US$1.5B Sandy Hook debt. Company bankruptcy is dismissed
Dave Collins and Juan A. LozanoA federal judge on Friday ordered the liquidation of conspiracy theorist Alex Jones' personal assets but dismissed his company's separate bankruptcy case, leaving the future of his Infowars media platform uncertain as he owes US$1.5 billion for his false claims that the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting was a hoax.
Judge Christopher Lopez approved converting Jones' proposed personal bankruptcy reorganization to a liquidation. But Lopez threw out the case of his company, Austin, Texas-based Free Speech Systems, after failed attempts by Jones to reach an agreement with Sandy Hook families on his proposals to reorganize and keep operating the company while paying them millions of dollars.
A trustee appointed Friday in Jones' personal bankruptcy case to oversee the liquidation now has control over his assets, including Infowars, according to lawyers for Sandy Hook families.
Dismissal of Free Speech Systems' case means the families can now move immediately to collect on the US$1.5 billion in state courts in Texas and Connecticut where ...
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