Please don't misjudge religion by those that parasitize it.
I've known a few Christians in my life. They were extraordinary persons.
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I've known a few Christians in my life. They were extraordinary persons.
The contradiction between what Christianity started as and what some people did to it with the Crusades, Inquisitions, and Conquistadors, is just amazing.
I've had a few good friends that spoke Spanish as their native tongue.
They were neither Spaniards nor Inquisitors, none named Torquemada.
Separately, among the Christians I've known, my 6th grade teacher, about the most saintly man I've ever met.
It was rural New York State in the mid-1960's. He was paid poorly enough not to buy an overcoat.
Throughout the Winter he wore a beautiful apparently hand-knitted sweater, & undertook to teach our diverse class a broad range of subjects.
He taught with infectious enthusiasm & noble patience. For Christmas, with pittance for salary, he gifted to each of his students
a paper printed copy of this artwork by Albrecht Durer:
beautifully mounted on thin wood veneer.
That's about as close to proselytizing as he ever got.
A few years ago there was a lunar occultation, sometimes called an "eclipse".
The path of totality straddled Long Lake, NY.
We met there, and enjoyed the spectacle together.
I do not know if he attends church regularly, if at all.
I visited his home a few times, don't recall having seen a Holy Bible there.
We also got together for his 80th birthday anniversary, where he described to me looking out his office window and seeing this:
You may recognize it as Wall Street, NYC.After teaching he went into banking. I gather he might have been a $millionaire many times over, BUT !
He lived quite modestly, as an (apparently conscientious) vegetarian.
I do not know, but imagine he kept enough of his earnings to live on, and donated the rest to charity, apparently far more than $10% tithe.
To celebrate his 80th we dined (probably sushi) and discussed matters such as Glass–Steagall.
In the four years I attended that school I recall him uttering the word "Christian" once, though he might have uttered it a few times more.
It was in answer to a student's question about the school's Christmas festivities.
He's not the only Christian I've met. None better.
The message I hope to impress here:
it is a disgraceful injustice to misjudge those that live by the teachings of Christ not for prestige, but for their own conviction.
Misjudging them on basis of charlatan poseurs:
- rewards the imposters
- insults Christians, &
- undermines your own credibility.
From one agnostic to another, I think we're better than that here.
Don't you?
There can be no doubt the ethical nature exists beyond the scope of any individual.
But whether it is evolution or god does not really matter.
It still defines the essence of life.
"Ethics is the scientific study of right & wrong." Tom Clancy
While it may be true that ethics precedes law, ethics does NOT preclude law. Therefore law should support ethics, not circumvent it.
what is good vs. what is true ( ethics vs. epistemology )
Ethics not only addresses behavior, but how we treat one another.
I'm not prepared to assume it can never matter, even if it hasn't so far.
And though those definitions may not contradict,
they may seem disparate.
The proud mother of a newborn may define life differently than a quantum chemist, even if each is not in error.
eth·ic (ĕthĭk)
n.
1.a. A set of principles of right conduct.
[Middle English ethik, from Old French ethique (from Late Latin ēthica, from Greek ēthika, ethics) and from Latin ēthicē (from Greek ēthikē), both from Greek ēthikos, ethical, from ēthos, character; see s(w)e- in the Appendix of Indo-European roots.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition copyright ©2022 by HarperCollins Publishers. All rights reserved.
While it may be true that ethics precedes law, ethics does NOT preclude law. Therefore law should support ethics, not circumvent it.
what is good vs. what is true ( ethics vs. epistemology )
The concept of ethics in a cosmos with a total of only one occupant doesn't make sense to me.
Ethics not only addresses behavior, but how we treat one another.
It may not matter in some ways, in some circumstances.
I'm not prepared to assume it can never matter, even if it hasn't so far.
I believe there are multiple definitions.
And though those definitions may not contradict,
they may seem disparate.
The proud mother of a newborn may define life differently than a quantum chemist, even if each is not in error.
eth·ic (ĕthĭk)
n.
1.a. A set of principles of right conduct.
[Middle English ethik, from Old French ethique (from Late Latin ēthica, from Greek ēthika, ethics) and from Latin ēthicē (from Greek ēthikē), both from Greek ēthikos, ethical, from ēthos, character; see s(w)e- in the Appendix of Indo-European roots.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition copyright ©2022 by HarperCollins Publishers. All rights reserved.
If I see something about to fall on someone, I will reach out to stop it regardless of if it is evolutionary instinct or a spiritual beings presence.
But law is only about defending others from abuse, not to punish those who fail to sacrifice for others.
Venn
There are both natural, and supernatural motives.
I've witnessed each.
In context of a bar brawler that deliberately splashes his beer broadly at the bar, and then assaults & batters his chosen splatter victim, yes.
In context of an income tax cheat, serving time for indebtedness to the $treasury?
It may vary from State to State. I suspect in NY State rescuing an emergency victim is optional, not sure.
I am not sure, but a tax cheat is getting benefits they did not pay for, so is sort of stealing?
"Theft of service"?
The mafia earned a reputation for operating what is called a "protection racket".
The mafioso struts into the local store, explains to the shopkeeper it's a dangerous neighborhood,
people's legs get broken, their stores burn down, BUT !
For $500 per month we'll keep an eye on the place for you, insure nothing bad happens.
If the shopkeeper doesn't pay up, they break his legs and burn down his shop, inventory & all.
WELL ?!
Is that really so much different from government?
Pay your taxes, or we'll throw you in the dungeon?
They're both protection rackets.
The protection racket was over a nonexistent third party threat and was actually the one claiming to provide the protection who was the real threat.
But government does provide, things like roads, harbors, schools, libraries, Post Office, etc.
So people who try to not pay taxes are getting benefits they did not pay for.
The only reason I do not mind cheating on taxes is that the government likely does more harm than good, like illegal military attacks on innocent countries?
Shiftless2
Well-known member
Reminds me of the Popeye cartoon character:
"I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today!"
If we pay up in this life, they'll take care of us in the next. That's why they all ways give a $receipt for contributions to the collection plate.
"God" is portrayed as omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and short of cash." Crane
Excellent point. Important distinction. Thank you R5.
Your #2,710 is clearer than my #2,707.
R5 added:
I haven't figured out a practical way to implement cafeteria taxation.
That would enable pacifists to not pay tax that funds the Pentagon, etc.
I suspect the nearest we'll ever get to that is bridge tolls, etc.
With license plate scanners replacing toll booths, perhaps fake license plates will become the go-to ploy for toll cheats.
Excellent point. Important distinction. Thank you R5.
Your #2,710 is clearer than my #2,707.
R5 added:
I haven't figured out a practical way to implement cafeteria taxation.
That would enable pacifists to not pay tax that funds the Pentagon, etc.
I suspect the nearest we'll ever get to that is bridge tolls, etc.
With license plate scanners replacing toll booths, perhaps fake license plates will become the go-to ploy for toll cheats.
I just got my 2nd video speeding ticket, so am considering those plastic covers for license plates that are transparent to humans, but opaque to cameras.
I do not believe these camera speeding tickets are legal.
They violate the 6th amendment since you can't face your accuser in court, and I do not believe doppler radar is reliable.
I'm not sure if that requires a special polymer. Have you tried sandwich wrap? The Brits call it "cling film".
I hope it's challenged in the courts. BUT !
Stare Decisis.
I suspect, when it is, efforts will be made to find a sympathetic circuit.
Please pardon me for turning lab coat on you, isn't radar radio interferometry?
Not sure if yours is another conspiracy theory, but I gather interferometry is relatively reliable.
In NY such summons lists the alleged speed. If their disclosure doesn't match your eye witness of the speedometer, you might want to create a conversion chart, or recalibrate the speedo.
From personal experience, in the lab I used to work in, we used laser interferometry to measure film thickness in Ångströms.
It's not merely that it was stupendously accurate. We used it real-time during a dry reactive ion etch operation to reach a target film thickness.
If it didn't work, we wouldn't use it.
Shiftless2
Well-known member
Shiftless2
Well-known member
I know that there have been court cases about the use of speed cameras and the courts have concluded that they're legal.
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Are Speed Cameras Legal in the U.S.? Yes, but not everywhere, and not always in the same way. The legality of speed cameras in the United States is governed by a patchwork of state and local laws, meaning: Some states explicitly allow speed enforcement cameras.Sep 3, 2025