News Related To The Ukraine / Russian War

[sear]

"I do not think it is a separate issue." R5 #440

You've cited a baseline.
Chronologically the baseline may make some sense.
But some others, perhaps some others native to the region have a different baseline in mind.

Problem is, we / they are years into a blood-spilling War. The challenge is how to end it equitably.
Ethnic Russians aside, I'm not sure simply forfeiting Ukraine sovereignty is the optimal option.

You have an opinion.
I have an opinion. BUT !
We're Americans.
The news I'm getting of it indicates our Western European allies / trade partners are near or at unanimity
in believing it's better / best if Russia exits to Ukraine borders recognized before Russia assimilated Crimea.

We can don't like it all we like, but I gather that's pretty much what EU / NATO wants, & thinks best.

The evidence Ukrainians as a unanimity of individuals share that view is the years of heroic combat they've undergone,
and continue to undergo, against an aggressive enemy that's not merely superior, but by reputation, a global super-power.

Their position on it is not simple philosophy.
They understand, if some or all of Ukraine falls, a NATO member nation may be next. Think domino.
AND ! Article 5. That means NATO at War with Russia.
Western Europe doesn't want that.

"Putin has to win.
Otherwise that would mean NATO nukes on Russia's border." R5 #440

It could mean that.
It would not necessarily mean that.

As you know, resolution of the Kennedy administration's Cuber Missile Crisis was:
- the Soviets remove their missiles from Cuba, &
- the U.S. remove its missiles from Turkey.

So your scenario is one possibility.
It's not the only possibility.

"The idea the US can make the Ukraine win against Russia, is essentially insane." R5 #440

Einstein made good use of "the thought experiment".

Pretend the U.S. doesn't exist.
The idea Ukraine has won against Russia for this many years is essentially insane. BUT !
None the less ... Ukraine has held ground quite impressively, FOR YEARS !

"Russia is quite aware these are all US drones." R5 #440

So you've asserted multiple times.
UNQUESTIONABLY some of Ukraine's air defenses have been U.S. munitions.

But I've seen enough video reports over the years revealing Ukraine's domestic munitions manufacturing / supply chain.
One of the more recent, plastic nose cones being produced by 3D printers, in a small residential apartment.

Sometimes Ockham's Razor applies.
Some matériel Ukraine's been using has come from the U.S.
Some is domestic / internal Ukraine.
Still others, from Western Europe, for they know: their option is, help Ukraine battle Russia now with Ukraine blood and E.U. treasure, - OR -
battle Russia directly later, with E.U. blood & treasure.

"And there is no way Russia is or can possibly back down from this existential and deliberate threat." R5 #440

Because Russia cannot possibly risk the peace, prosperity, and national security it enjoyed for decades, before it massed troops on Ukraine's borders,
before it assimilated Crimea?

Conspicuously, flagrantly ridiculous.

 

[Shiftless2]

 

[Rigby5]

You've cited a baseline.
Chronologically the baseline may make some sense.
But some others, perhaps some others native to the region have a different baseline in mind.

Problem is, we / they are years into a blood-spilling War. The challenge is how to end it equitably.
Ethnic Russians aside, I'm not sure simply forfeiting Ukraine sovereignty is the optimal option.

You have an opinion.
I have an opinion. BUT !
We're Americans.
The news I'm getting of it indicates our Western European allies / trade partners are near or at unanimity
in believing it's better / best if Russia exits to Ukraine borders recognized before Russia assimilated Crimea.

We can don't like it all we like, but I gather that's pretty much what EU / NATO wants, & thinks best.

The evidence Ukrainians as a unanimity of individuals share that view is the years of heroic combat they've undergone,
and continue to undergo, against an aggressive enemy that's not merely superior, but by reputation, a global super-power.

Their position on it is not simple philosophy.
They understand, if some or all of Ukraine falls, a NATO member nation may be next. Think domino.
AND ! Article 5. That means NATO at War with Russia.
Western Europe doesn't want that.


It could mean that.
It would not necessarily mean that.

As you know, resolution of the Kennedy administration's Cuber Missile Crisis was:
- the Soviets remove their missiles from Cuba, &
- the U.S. remove its missiles from Turkey.

So your scenario is one possibility.
It's not the only possibility.


Einstein made good use of "the thought experiment".

Pretend the U.S. doesn't exist.
The idea Ukraine has won against Russia for this many years is essentially insane. BUT !
None the less ... Ukraine has held ground quite impressively, FOR YEARS !


So you've asserted multiple times.
UNQUESTIONABLY some of Ukraine's air defenses have been U.S. munitions.

But I've seen enough video reports over the years revealing Ukraine's domestic munitions manufacturing / supply chain.
One of the more recent, plastic nose cones being produced by 3D printers, in a small residential apartment.

Sometimes Ockham's Razor applies.
Some matériel Ukraine's been using has come from the U.S.
Some is domestic / internal Ukraine.
Still others, from Western Europe, for they know: their option is, help Ukraine battle Russia now with Ukraine blood and E.U. treasure, - OR -
battle Russia directly later, with E.U. blood & treasure.


Because Russia cannot possibly risk the peace, prosperity, and national security it enjoyed for decades, before it massed troops on Ukraine's borders,
before it assimilated Crimea?

Conspicuously, flagrantly ridiculous.

I still question your whole perspective.
For example, you mentioned, "before Russia assimilated Crimea."
And if you check the background reality, the Crimea historically was almost always part of Russia.
The only time it was not part of Russia originally was during the Mongol invasion.
After the Mongols left, it was populated by the Asian Tatars who came with the Mongols, as the Khanate.
And was reclaimed by Russia in 1783.
And the ethnic Polish in the Ukraine are incredibly racist against Asians, so can't be allowed to rule the Crimea.
So when and how did the Ukraine gain ownership of the Crimea?
It was in 1953, when Khruschev, ( secretly a Ukrainian ), arbitrarily gave the Crimea to the Ukraine.
But that was a Russian Ukraine, and not a Polish Ukraine like who is in control in Kyiv now.

As far as NATO goes, they actually are the racist/fascist who used to be the worst colonial imperialists all over the globe.
If you look at who invaded and enslaved most of the world, it was the Spanish conquistadors, the French, and British.
The only difference from NATO is that the US replaced Spain after we stole the Spanish empire in the illegal Spanish American war.

But the whole point is that the Cold War detente works because of MAD.
However, since the Ukraine used to have Russian nuke launch sites, it is inside the Russian defense grid.
That means anything launched from inside the Ukraine, can not be detected by Russia.
So the whole goal of Hunter Biden delivering bribes to the ethnic Polish general in Kyiv in 2013, was in order to be able to wipe out Russia with an undetectable first strike, launched from inside the Ukraine, on Russia's border.

It should be obvious why Russia can never allow the Ukraine then to become a member of a western "alliance hostile to Russia".
Since Russia could no longer defend itself from a first strike from the Ukraine, the only remaining possible strategy by Russia would be to launch first.
There is no other possible alternative.
Continuing to support the ethnic Polish takeover of the Ukraine can only mean total destruction of the entire US.

 

[Rigby5]

View attachment 7230

But the current government in Kyiv is not at all native.
It is the remnants of the failed invasion by the Old Polish Empire defeated around 1700.
Apparently these ethnic Polish should not have been allowed to stay, since they clearly never intended to assimilate.
The remnants of the ethnic Polish invasion can never be allowed to rule since they are the evil racist/fascists who want Hitler's death camps for him.

 

[sear]

"I still question your whole perspective." R5 #443

What it lacks in creativity it more than makes up for in popularity.
I believe the view I've expressed substantially reflects the consensus view of the Western world.

I do not dismiss considering history.
But I don't absolutize history either.

We can sharpen our focus by narrowing the ownership at issue.
When the Nazis steal an irreplaceable master artwork, does passing time diminish the former rightful owner's claim?

Is acreage different from canvas?
How many generations must be born to an area, complete their lives and die there,
before that tenure is recognized as superior to those previous?

If in 1960 you were given a choice which of two cities you could choose to live in:
Paris, or
Moscow
which would you choose?

Humans tend to want what's best for themselves.
That's not to deny or dismiss ethnic nationality.

But we tend to prefer an adequate food supply, safe neighborhoods, and freedom of speech.
Some humans died trying to breach the Berlin Wall. BUT !
There were reportedly more persons attempting the transit East to West than the opposite.

It makes little difference to me which flag flutters atop the pole in Kyyiv.

Seems to me in utilitarian contest, by standard of living, Russia has been an also-ran.

It's not quite as simple as putting down the guns and determining the location of the border by popular vote.
Putin, as with most authoritarian dictators, tends to impart reason for doubt about legitimacy of elections they're connected to.

I don't have the luxury of claiming ideological purity about self-determination.
I support Jefferson's DOI.

BUT !

I have never been a persuasive advocate for the secessionist South. I support the union, despite staunch Southern support
for a dame Yankee president like Trump, a native New Yorker don't you know.

Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this one R5.

I believe Russia was the aggressor, because that's the way it was reported at the time. Early posts in this form demonstrate that.
I believe Ukrainians oppose Russian aggression, because though some have fled Ukraine entirely, many have stood their ground to defend it.