Government is a protection racket.

[sear]

It is a cliche' of the mafia: send mafia thugs into a neighborhood to cause problems. Then send mafia messengers to the victims with the following message. You live in a rough neighborhood. You need protection. This is what it will $cost you each month. The mafia thugs then leave alone the ones that pay, & antagonize the rest.

That differs from government how?
The sales pitch is different. But the message is eerily familiar. The attacks that killed thousands on 09/11/01 remind US we live in a rough neighborhood, and so we need the U.S. military, etc etc etc

We even get the illusion of choice. U.S. voters can choose between Democrat candidates, or Republican candidates.
Members of one party will often try to present themselves, their party as different, better than the opposing party. Who are they kidding? They're all politicians.

"A government exists when it has a reasonable monopoly on the legitimate use of violence." George Will

"You don't need a formal conspiracy when interests converge. These [President Bush (the younger) appointees and sympathizers] people went to the same universities and fraternities, they're on the same boards of directors, they're in the same country clubs, they have like interests. They don't need to call a meeting, they know what's good for them, and they're getting it.
There used to be 7 oil companies, now there are 3, it will soon be 2. The things that matter in this country have been reduced in choice. There are 2 political parties, there are a hand full of insurance companies, there are about 6 or 7 information companies. But if you want a bagel there are 23 flavors because you have the illusion, you have the illusion of choice. You don't get the real important choices, there's no freedom of choice." George Carlin

 

[Borg Refinery]

How would you have things instead? That's not to knock what you said, there is a lot of truth in your words.

Aside: I really like these old threads of yours that got zero replies, some interesting thoughts here.

You may see a lot of ancient topic bumps as a result.

 

[sear]

How would you have things instead?

Indeed.
Rhetorically government may be a "necessary evil". Precisely as your didactic query suggests, what other option is there?
It may be difficult to prove. But even at humanity's current primitive stage of development we're likely far ahead of where humanity would otherwise be without society, including governance.
Language is obviously a stellar component, including written language.

It has helped provide & proliferate practical insights such as Catholics "7 Deadly Sins":
1. Gluttony
2. Anger
3. Envy
4. Greed
5. Lust
6. Pride
7. Sloth

I assume & believe we're far from a "magic bullet" here. But on the margins I wonder if we might shave a few % of Earth's violence problems by including some basic humanitarian principles in primary education.

How come federal law prohibits Bibles in classrooms, and yet distributes Bibles in prisons? That’s too late.
attributed by Paul Harvey to Glenn Wheeler / Columbus, OH

 

[Borg Refinery]

Indeed.
Rhetorically government may be a "necessary evil". Precisely as your didactic query suggests, what other option is there?

That wasn't at all the intent of my inquiry, it was to inquire into exactly how you'd have things instead / to find out details regarding your own preferred system(s) of governance or otherwise. As regards the seven deadly sins, I always assumed you were a hardline Atheist. That also strikes me as an incomplete list when taking into account other denominations aside from Catholics.

 

[Shiftless2]

How come federal law prohibits Bibles in classrooms, and yet distributes Bibles in prisons? That’s too late.
attributed by Paul Harvey to Glenn Wheeler / Columbus, OH

Actually the law doesn't prohibit bibles in the classroom. If a student wants to bring his own bible to school there is nothing in federal law stopping him.

As for prisons:

If all the Atheists & Agnostics left America, they'd lose 93% of The National Academy of Sciences & less than 1% of the prison population.

I don't know how credible those numbers are. I've tried to chase down a legitimate source and can't actually find one. Depending on how you define atheist and agnostic I can believe the percentage re scientists but I have to say that the prison population is a different matter. After all, how exactly do you determine which prisoners are claiming to be religious (having found god or whatever) in order to lessen their sentences? It's easy to make the "right noises" if that's what someone thinks the parole board wants to hear.

 

[sear]

That wasn't at all the intent of my inquiry, it was to inquire into exactly how you'd have things instead

Just as I thought.
I do have some personal preferences. But I don't pretend to have all the answers. My comment was intended to at least contrast the external control of governance (sweep up the mess), vs internal control of reciprocal civility (avoid making a mess in the first place).
In principle I'd rather prevent problems than support a lavish prison-industrial complex. But even if I'd bothered to get a master's degree from divinity school, I'm not sure it would do much to protect me from street thugs.

I always assumed you were a hardline Atheist.

I may have been close to it generations ago.
- Atheism addresses disbelief.
- Agnosticism addresses ignorance.

I take no shame in confessing my own ignorance. Better that than lying about it.

Actually the law doesn't prohibit bibles in the classroom. If a student wants to bring his own bible to school there is nothing in federal law stopping him.

The issue is not possession, for holy scripture is not contraband. The issue is the source. It's called "public" school in the U.S.
But "public" school is a euphemism for "government" school.
The difference of course is at the end of school each day students go home. Prisoners do not.
I wouldn't tangle myself in the weeds trying to refute Wheeler's (post #3) insight. Imperfect though it may be, I find an element of constructive insight in it.

Experienced psychologists understand, the familiar mantra of those tragically unrelentingly tormented by their own lifestyle and conduct is quite often found to be: "I'm RIGHT !! !!"

I wouldn't waste my time debating the merits of a talking serpent, or a pregnant virgin. To do so may obscure practical utility. It is after all quite possible to be right for the wrong reason. Religion obviously has something to offer. I've met a few that were down and out, homeless, unwashed, and hungry. None of them had a Bible, or the Holy Qur'an tucked under their arm.

 

[Borg Refinery]

The prison industrial complex is a for-profit industry in the USA, which indicates motives that are different to simply 'sweeping up the mess'; they indicate something more sinister. Those with sinister intentions often lecture about religiosity. You see it all the time from Republicans. Talking serpents indeed.

As an aside, there's actually a large number of homel;ess who regularly pep talk about the Bible and religion, in fact mosques and churches often have large conversion programs/in return for aid/food/shelter where they attempt to persuade people to join their cult religion in return for gifts, so that [the last part of your post] is not really true either.

 

[Borg Refinery]

I do think government is a protection racket of sorts, one just need look at the monopoly they have on land, 'public land' indicates public ownership - but there's no 'public ownership' - the government owns it. In ways such as this, I am more amenable to libertarian arguments; they [libertarians] have plenty to offer here IMHO, in terms of ideas wrt self-governing - and in terms of ideas wrt land redistribution. Don't forget about monopoly of natural resources, and of course intellectual property / copyright on things that simply shouldn't be copyrighted, there's plenty of that.

In these ways, government really can be seen as a protection racket, maybe we can agree on that. There was a lot of truth in the opening post. It seems a shame to go into the weeds and divert too far from the point onto other things here. The government often thinks it has a monopoly on religion too, actually. In the old days, in medieval Europe that was certainly much more true - a religious industrial complex of sorts I guess? They had a monopoly on whether one's soul would go to heaven, follow our line or else, or so they thought.. how ridiculous when coming from the church of England, or indeed even most Orthodox or Catholic institutions.

That said, Atheism, when enforced in the manner of Josef Stalin is equally as destructive, as is Agnosticism without thought; those who simply say 'we don't know' and almost 'we dont want to know' / shouldn't seek answers / remain in our place [as some advocate]? I can't really fathom that - the more inquisitive and questioning Agnostics are a different matter, I have more time for those.

 

[sear]

The prison industrial complex is a for-profit industry in the USA

For profit prisons surely must be included. I take the "-industrial complex" term from President Eisenhower.

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

The nation we memorialize in song as "the land of the free, and the home of the brave" reportedly has the highest per capita incarceration in the Western world.
It is the prevailing tendency for department heads within government to want to sustain or expand their petty fiefdom. Highway department, bureau of Indian affairs, doesn't matter. They all do, including the bureau of prisons. For this reason among others I believe the prison industrial complex predates for profit incarceration. The Drug War alone should justify that.

there's actually a large number of homel;ess who regularly pep talk about the Bible and religion, in fact mosques and churches often have large conversion programs/in return for aid/food/shelter where they attempt to persuade people to join their cult religion in return for gifts, so that [the last part of your post] is not really true either.

I was totally w/ you on this, until the last 5 words. CERTAINLY some religions including Christianity make some effort to care for the needy. Not clear to me what untruth you perceive here.

Atheism, when enforced in the manner of Josef Stalin is equally as destructive, as is Agnosticism without thought;

The prefix A- can be used to mean against or opposed to. It can also simply mean without, as in asymptomatic.
Stalin was surely a monster, though quantifiably not the worst in human history. BUT !!
I have not read that Stalin imposed his totalitarian dictatorship in service to religious disbelief. Instead Stalin was a dictator, and as long as his subjects obeyed him adequately they may have been able to harbor the religious delusion of their choice.

Requiring belief or lack thereof is something quite different.

Pascal's Wager was offered as an argument for belief. ref: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/
I consider Pascal's Wager an argument for hypocrisy, and an absurd one at that. For if indeed god is omniscient, then pretending to believe will not fool god. And candidly if I were god I'd hold a conscientious agnostic in higher esteem than a cowardly sycophant.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), U.S. president. Letter, 10 Aug. 1787

 

[titan]

Some movies depict prisons with limited library access. Prison wardens may throttle such access as a means of control. Highly restricted Internet access? With greater privilege greater control? Or perhaps prison cells with computer terminals with access to the prison library? I'd like to hear prison wardens debate that.

 

[Shiftless2]

Pascal's Wager was offered as an argument for belief. ref: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

Reality is, Pascal himself didn't regard the wager as being an argument for belief. He just thought of it as an interesting exercise in probability and game theory.

That said the wager has been thoroughly debunked many times over.

pascal's wager debunked - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[sear]

Reality is, Pascal himself didn't regard the wager as being an argument for belief.

Thanks S2.
If it seems I accused Pascal directly I retract / clarify.
It may not be Pascal directly, but those that invoke his name, or parasitize his works. Truth is I never met the man. BUT !! I appreciate your clarification. *

"The fact that somebody over-sells an idea doesn't make it a bad idea. It makes them a bad salesman." Rep. Barney Frank (D-MA ret)

* IF that's the case, I think Pascal was neglectful to not inextricably weld to that notion the fundamental counterpoint that:

- Given the priceless, invaluable gift of sentient life, quite brief in context of infinite time, what sense does it make to forfeit any significant portion of our mortal, brief time allotment, to nonsense metaphysical mumbo-jumbo?
Does it not make more sense to invest what little sentience time we have to reality, and not squander it on mythopoeic hysteria? That too Blaise, reduces to a ratio.

note:
I'm not insisting time is infinite. Instead, I cannot prove it is not. And since we have no plausible proof about the 4th dimension before the big bang, I leave it as science does, undefined, indeterminate, but not conclusively non-existent. Who can definitively prove our big bang was not preceded quintillions of eons before by a big crunch?

 

[Shiftless2]

I've always figured that one of the biggest problems with Pascal's Wager revolves around "which god".

Think of it this way - which is the bigger sin: (i) not worshipping any god or (ii) worshipping the "wrong" god? If the real god is anything like the god of the bible it would appear to be (ii). After all the god of the Bible is a jealous god (fact is, his very name is jealous) and he commands the destruction of entire villages if so much as a single inhabitant is found to be worshipping a different got.

There are others - any of the articles debunking the Wager should provide you with a lot of ammunition.

 

[sear]

I've always figured that one of the biggest problems with Pascal's Wager revolves around "which god".

Sensibly so.
But even if we were able with metaphysical certitude to narrow it down to two: Jehovah, or Zeus (sorry Allah, maybe next time), it's still a binary, yes or no.
Combine them, Jehovah AND Zeus, Jehovah OR Zeus ...
I still end up with neither.

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." sometimes attributed to Seneca the Younger (c.3 BCE - CE 65)

I don't discount your #13 here S2. But for me any of the familiar divines are included.

Pantheism may muddy the waters. If everything is god, then nothing is god? If every day is Christmas, then no day is Christmas (as we know it), for Christmas is special, unusual, exceptional, occurring only once in 365.25 days. Christmas isn't special if it happens all the time.
I've long believed the life of an ingrate is a life largely wasted. I lavish appreciation on my world not to kiss up to the guy in the sky, but because it enriches my own brief sentience. Ironically, that seems to tilt toward hedonism, a philosophy I rejected in youth, but which I've arrived at in old age after having considered and rejected all the others.
Niels Bohr covers that one: examine all explanations, but after all the others have been refuted, rejected, that one remaining explanation no matter how seemingly implausible is the correct explanation. I imagine Mother Theresa was a hedonist. I simply believe she would not be as content swilling Jack, & playing Nintendo in her La-Z-Boy recliner, though she could have afforded it with her Nobel prize winnings. Imagine the $windfall from a few endorsements !

[/topic drift: Government is a protection racket.]

 

[Shiftless2]

Just an observation, followers of all three of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship the same god. The god of Abraham.

And it doesn't matter what name you use (God, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, El Shaddai, or any any of the other names that have been used over the centuries), they're all the same being.

 

[Borg Refinery]

For profit prisons surely must be included. I take the "-industrial complex" term from President Eisenhower.

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."
Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961

The nation we memorialize in song as "the land of the free, and the home of the brave" reportedly has the highest per capita incarceration in the Western world.
It is the prevailing tendency for department heads within government to want to sustain or expand their petty fiefdom. Highway department, bureau of Indian affairs, doesn't matter. They all do, including the bureau of prisons. For this reason among others I believe the prison industrial complex predates for profit incarceration. The Drug War alone should justify that.

I was totally w/ you on this, until the last 5 words. CERTAINLY some religions including Christianity make some effort to care for the needy. Not clear to me what untruth you perceive here.

The prefix A- can be used to mean against or opposed to. It can also simply mean without, as in asymptomatic.
Stalin was surely a monster, though quantifiably not the worst in human history. BUT !!
I have not read that Stalin imposed his totalitarian dictatorship in service to religious disbelief. Instead Stalin was a dictator, and as long as his subjects obeyed him adequately they may have been able to harbor the religious delusion of their choice.

Requiring belief or lack thereof is something quite different.

Pascal's Wager was offered as an argument for belief. ref: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/
I consider Pascal's Wager an argument for hypocrisy, and an absurd one at that. For if indeed god is omniscient, then pretending to believe will not fool god. And candidly if I were god I'd hold a conscientious agnostic in higher esteem than a cowardly sycophant.

So what do you propose instead of the various bureaues to manage what is it, 350 million people? Local autonomy? Devolved administration? With such complex systems and people moving about constantly they'd all need to communicate with each other thus ever increasing amounts of bureaucracy and miscommunication would result.

I think the for profit prison industry is sick but I was simply pointing out you said they were trying to fix the symptoms rather than the cause, but I'm saying it's not even about clearing the symptoms - it's purely for profit ie a much more cynical motive. That said, I don't think the war oon drugs can be simply solved with a 'pen stroke', that to me is wishful thinking, very much so.

 

[sear]

S2 #15
That's not the first time I've encountered that assertion. I'm a shade skeptical, partly because the definitions rely on translations of translations ...

"These [Biblical] books existed in the oral tradition for hundreds of thousands of years. They finally wrote them down in Aramaic, later translated into Greek, & then Latin, and finally English, hundreds and hundreds of revisions: and this is supposed to be absolute direct word of God. ... Jesus said love your enemies, Rush Limbaugh heard kill the fags." actor John Fugelsang

My intended counterpoint S2 is the religionists pretend they get to define god, because they act like they got first dibs. For me their right to define god is confined to their religion.

So what do you propose instead of the various bureaues to manage what is it, 350 million people? Local autonomy? Devolved administration? With such complex systems and people moving about constantly they'd all need to communicate with each other thus ever increasing amounts of bureaucracy and miscommunication would result.

I feel as dense as Lead here BR. I'm not sure what this means. You mean how else to handle the imprisoned population?
I would not just leave it as a binary choice, government run prisons vs for profit. Might seem a bad idea, but I'd at least want some feedback from the prisoners, the residents of the facility, along with the prison guards (called "corrections officers" in my neighborhood).

I think the for profit prison industry is sick but I was simply pointing out you said they were trying to fix the symptoms rather than the cause, but I'm saying it's not even about clearing the symptoms - it's purely for profit ie a much more cynical motive. That said, I don't think the war oon drugs can be simply solved with a 'pen stroke', that to me is wishful thinking, very much so.

I trust your insight here BR. I don't have much passion, one option over another. In decades past I've read alarming articles about prison over-crowding. Haven't read much about that lately.

Globally, there's gargantuan difference between incarceration in Mexico, or Russia, vs Germany. I'm weary enough for the serenity prayer to have prevailed.

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference."

I've got my own problems. And a few generations, decades of my life tilting at windmills has left me exhausted, and apathetic.