What to call this thread?

In the discourse of public debate one of the easy ways to identify the legitimate* side is the integrity of the rhetoric.
Shiftless2 said:

‘The Supreme Court Debated My Right to Be on the Track Team’ #1,321​

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No.
Not the "right to be on the track team". Instead,
whether to compete on the male team, or the female team.

* or in some cases the less illegitimate
 
Shiftless2 said:
power

‘The Supreme Court Debated My Right to Be on the Track Team’​

What it’s like at the center of a case that may affect trans athletes across the country.​

As told to Molly Longman

View attachment 3958

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www.thecut.com
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I don't like anything about the case.

First of all, they used hormone therapy before the kid was even 11, and that is a horrible idea, since puberty had not been reached yet, so they had not achieved either sex yet.

Second is that they still are going to have different bone structure, muscle types, etc. that prevent appropriate competition.
 
Rigby5 said:
First of all, they used hormone therapy before the kid was even 11, and that is a horrible idea, since puberty had not been reached yet, so they had not achieved either sex yet.
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Absolute nonsense. So you're saying a prepubescent child can't be labelled as male or female??

Second is that they still are going to have different bone structure, muscle types, etc. that prevent appropriate competition.
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And if those hormones are administered before puberty that doesn't hold true - the differences in bone structure are due to hormone.
 
Shiftless2 said:
Absolute nonsense. So you're saying a prepubescent child can't be labelled as male or female??


And if those hormones are administered before puberty that doesn't hold true - the differences in bone structure are due to hormone.
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Correct.
I am claiming a prepubescent child is not any sex yet.
That is because the birth genitals do not dictate gender to me.
What is the most defining is the mental orientation that comes with puberty.

The differences in bone structure are due to hormones, but I think the hormone difference starts at birth?
But I am not really sure of that?
 
Rigby5 said:
I am claiming a prepubescent child is not any sex yet.
That is because the birth genitals do not dictate gender to me.
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You're confusing sex and gender - the two are not the same and they don't always agree. With rare exceptions (intersex individuals) sex is a function of the child's genitals.

And children self-identify by gender at a very young age - as early as two or three - long before puberty

What is the most defining is the mental orientation that comes with puberty.
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To repeat - children self-identify by gender at a very young age (as early as two or three) long before puberty.

If you need a few examples look at any of these kids - they knew they were trans long before puberty raised it's head.


Or look at Jazz Jennings - perhaps the poster child for trans children she transitioned at about age 5 - if you read her various comments she talks about starting school (kindergarten) as a girl and having some kids who knew her previously saying things like "didn't you used to be a boy?"

The differences in bone structure are due to hormones, but I think the hormone difference starts at birth?
But I am not really sure of that?
Click to expand...
That's because that's not the case - the differences in bone structure and muscularity start with puberty.
 
When feminists feared the 'lavender menace' of lesbians — and how those lesbians fought back

Lesbians fought homophobia in the feminist movement with humor and heart.​

Jan 31, 2026
In the late 1960s and early 1970s, second-wave feminism, a.k.a. women’s liberation, was gathering steam, but it still didn’t have widespread support. Many Americans wondered why feminists would protest the revered Miss America pageant, as they did in 1968. “Women’s lib” was a punch line for comedians, and TV shows often presented feminist characters in a negative light. Amid all this, some feminist leaders were worried that their movement would have an image problem because of the presence of … lesbians.

Betty Friedan was one of the feminists particularly worried about lesbians. Friedan authored The Feminine Mystique, a 1963 book that revealed the dissatisfaction many women felt with traditional roles. It helped inspire second-wave feminism, although it was criticized for its focus on affluent white straight women. In 1966, Friedan and others founded the National Organization for Women, which became the leading U.S. feminist group.
www.advocate.com

When feminists feared the 'lavender menace' of lesbians — and how those lesbians fought back

Lesbians fought homophobia in the feminist movement with humor and heart.
www.advocate.com www.advocate.com

"Men are either born gay, or not. Women are quitters." Bill Maher
Click to expand...
 
Shiftless2 said:
You're confusing sex and gender - the two are not the same and they don't always agree. With rare exceptions (intersex individuals) sex is a function of the child's genitals.

And children self-identify by gender at a very young age - as early as two or three - long before puberty


To repeat - children self-identify by gender at a very young age (as early as two or three) long before puberty.

If you need a few examples look at any of these kids - they knew they were trans long before puberty raised it's head.


Or look at Jazz Jennings - perhaps the poster child for trans children she transitioned at about age 5 - if you read her various comments she talks about starting school (kindergarten) as a girl and having some kids who knew her previously saying things like "didn't you used to be a boy?"


That's because that's not the case - the differences in bone structure and muscularity start with puberty.
Click to expand...

The reason I disagree about "self-identifying by gender" at an early age, is that is more like role playing.
They may like a more nurturing role like providing meals, or a more assertive role like being a breadwinner.
But I think both are just like playing house, and are not sexual.
That is because they do not yet know what sex is.
And the reality is that either sex can be nurturing or assertive.
Those are totally independent features.
And it is a mistake by them and by adults to link them to gender.

But you are probably right about kids being physically neutral until puberty.
 
sear said:
When feminists feared the 'lavender menace' of lesbians — and how those lesbians fought back

Lesbians fought homophobia in the feminist movement with humor and heart.​

Jan 31, 2026
In the late 1960s and early 1970s, second-wave feminism, a.k.a. women’s liberation, was gathering steam, but it still didn’t have widespread support. Many Americans wondered why feminists would protest the revered Miss America pageant, as they did in 1968. “Women’s lib” was a punch line for comedians, and TV shows often presented feminist characters in a negative light. Amid all this, some feminist leaders were worried that their movement would have an image problem because of the presence of … lesbians.

Betty Friedan was one of the feminists particularly worried about lesbians. Friedan authored The Feminine Mystique, a 1963 book that revealed the dissatisfaction many women felt with traditional roles. It helped inspire second-wave feminism, although it was criticized for its focus on affluent white straight women. In 1966, Friedan and others founded the National Organization for Women, which became the leading U.S. feminist group.
www.advocate.com

When feminists feared the 'lavender menace' of lesbians — and how those lesbians fought back

Lesbians fought homophobia in the feminist movement with humor and heart.
www.advocate.com www.advocate.com
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Interesting in how there are these 2 different aspects, appearance and activity roles that are links to gender, and sexuality that is also linked to gender.
 
Rigby - you really have to learn something about the subject.

The reason I disagree about "self-identifying by gender" at an early age, is that is more like role playing.
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You might want to take that up with the psychologists and other medical professionals who work in the field. They disagree with that statement.

They may like a more nurturing role like providing meals, or a more assertive role like being a breadwinner.
But I think both are just like playing house, and are not sexual.
Click to expand...
Gender identity is quite different from sexual orientation.

That is because they do not yet know what sex is.
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As I said, children self-identify by gender at a very young age, as early as two or three, long before the idea of sex enters into the picture.

And it is a mistake by them and by adults to link them to gender.
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It's safe to say that children don't link them to gender. But adults do. And that's one of the reasons that you'll still see claims that "being trans is just a phase" and "most trans kids grow out of it".

The source of that claim seems to be a thoroughly debunked study from some years ago that made that statement. There are a number of issues with that so called study.

- the children in question had never been diagnosed with GID (Gender Identity Disorder as it was then known);
- the "researchers" (and I use the term loosely) never attempted to differentiate between transgirls and the stereotypical "girly boy" or between transboys and tomboys. So of course many of those individuals left that behind.
- nobody followed up on the children in the study - if they stopped attending the clinic for any reason (moved, found a new doctor, whatever) they just closed the file and marked it "grew out of it"

On that topic, the medical professionals who work in the field say that children who persistently and consistently insist that their sex and gender do not agree hardly ever grow out of it.

But you are probably right about kids being physically neutral until puberty.
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I know I am but that refers to musculature and bone structure, not sexual orientation or gender identity.

On that topic, girls generally mature earlier than boys so prior to puberty they often have the edge in sports like wresting, jiu jitsu, judo, and so forth.
 
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Shiftless2 said:
Rigby - you really have to learn something about the subject.


You might want to take that up with the psychologists and other medical professionals who work in the field. They disagree with that statement.


Gender identity is quite different from sexual orientation.


As I said, children self-identify by gender at a very young age, as early as two or three, long before the idea of sex enters into the picture.


It's safe to say that children don't link them to gender. But adults do. And that's one of the reasons that you'll still see claims that "being trans is just a phase" and "most trans kids grow out of it".

The source of that claim seems to be a thoroughly debunked study from some years ago that made that statement. There are a number of issues with that so called study.

- the children in question had never been diagnosed with GID (Gender Identity Disorder as it was then known);
- the "researchers" (and I use the term loosely) never attempted to differentiate between transgirls and the stereotypical "girly boy" or between transboys and tomboys. So of course many of those individuals left that behind.
- nobody followed up on the children in the study - if they stopped attending the clinic for any reason (moved, found a new doctor, whatever) they just closed the file and marked it "grew out of it"

On that topic, the medical professionals who work in the field say that children who persistently and consistently insist that their sex and gender do not agree hardly ever grow out of it.


I know I am but that refers to musculature and bone structure, not sexual orientation or gender identity.

On that topic, girls generally mature earlier than boys so prior to puberty they often have the edge in sports like wresting, jiu jitsu, judo, and so forth.
Click to expand...


I believe underage are a third type that is inherently passive, are not really male or female.
I believe that before puberty, when they are claiming to be one gender or the other, that is a role playing game based on identifying with or reacting against some adult.
 
Rigby5 said:
I believe underage are a third type that is inherently passive, are not really male or female.
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Gender, like sexual orientation, is not binary (i.e., strictly M/F) and it has nothing to do with "being underage". Gender is perhaps best described as a "spectrum".


I believe that before puberty, when they are claiming to be one gender or the other, that is a role playing game based on identifying with or reacting against some adult.
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So you're saying that all these kids are just role playing? Nonsense


Hardly.
 
Shiftless2 said:
Gender, like sexual orientation, is not binary (i.e., strictly M/F) and it has nothing to do with "being underage". Gender is perhaps best described as a "spectrum".



So you're saying that all these kids are just role playing? Nonsense


Hardly.
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In my experience, almost all gay men had very overbearing mothers, so I feel they are looking for the affection they miss and feel they can't get from women.
With gay women, it seems most had passive fathers and they are looking for more assertive protection they feel they can't get from men.
 
Rigby5 said:
In my experience, almost all gay men had very overbearing mothers, so I feel they are looking for the affection they miss and feel they can't get from women.
With gay women, it seems most had passive fathers and they are looking for more assertive protection they feel they can't get from men.
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First a question - why are you commenting on sexual orientation when the vid is about gender identity. The two are not the same thing.

Secondly, sexual orientation is innate - that is, "those people" were born that way - it's not a function of their environment growing up.
 
1769976299132.png

On June 26, 1994, gay activists paraded a mile-long rainbow banner through the streets of New York City to commemorate the 25th anniversary of the Stonewall riots. The event celebrated LGBTQ+ resilience and the ongoing fight for equality and visibility.

The massive banner symbolized unity and progress within the LGBTQ+ community, drawing thousands of participants and spectators. It highlighted both the historical significance of the 1969 riots and the continued activism needed to challenge discrimination and secure civil rights across the United States.
 
Shiftless2 said:
First a question - why are you commenting on sexual orientation when the vid is about gender identity. The two are not the same thing.

Secondly, sexual orientation is innate - that is, "those people" were born that way - it's not a function of their environment growing up.
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I am not convinced sexual orientation and gender identity are different things?

Sexual orientation can't be innate or else it would exist from birth and not puberty.
 
Rigby5 said:
I am not convinced sexual orientation and gender identity are different things?
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They're different things. A cis person can be hetero, gay, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, or any other orientation. By the same token a trans individual can be any of those as well.

For example a transwoman can be attracted to men, women, both, neither, whatever exactly the same way a ciswoman can.

Sexual orientation can't be innate or else it would exist from birth and not puberty.
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What makes you think it only exists from puberty?

To quote George Takei (Sulu from Star Trek)

From about age 9 or 10, I knew I was different. Other boys would huff and puff: Monica’s so hot, or, Sally’s really cute. Well, I thought Monica and Sally were nice, but it was Bobby who really got me excited.​

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George Takei realized he was attracted to other boys around the age of nine or ten. He recalled this realization during his childhood while reflecting on his life, noting that he felt "different" from other boys at that young age. Despite this early awareness, he remained closeted for most of his life until officially coming out in 2005 at age 68.
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Shiftless2 said:
They're different things. A cis person can be hetero, gay, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, or any other orientation. By the same token a trans individual can be any of those as well.

For example a transwoman can be attracted to men, women, both, neither, whatever exactly the same way a ciswoman can.


What makes you think it only exists from puberty?

To quote George Takei (Sulu from Star Trek)
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I do not get how a cis or trans person can have a sexual orientation without also wanting to appear in the complementary role?

Maybe I was a little slow, but my sexuality did not start until puberty.
 
Rigby5 said:
I do not get how a cis or trans person can have a sexual orientation without also wanting to appear in the complementary role?
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If that's the case how can a cis person be any of hetero, gay, bisexual, pansexual, omnisexual, or asexual. (The same goes for trans individuals.)

And how does asexuality fit into that"

Definition: asexual "experiencing no sexual feelings or desires; not feeling sexual attraction to anyone."
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Maybe I was a little slow, but my sexuality did not start until puberty.
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I think you're confusing "desire" with the underlying orientation.

From the AI overview on the subject:

... scientific evidence strongly suggests sexual orientation is largely innate, developing from a complex mix of genetic, hormonal, and prenatal environmental factors, rather than being a choice or learned behavior, though the exact causes are still researched and it's not determined by a single "gay gene". Major medical and psychological organizations view it as a natural variation, with biological influences shaping it before or around birth.

Key Factors Influencing Sexual Orientation:
  • Genetics:
    Genes play a role, but it's polygenic, meaning many genes contribute small effects, similar to height, not a single gene.

    • Prenatal Hormones:
      The uterine environment, including exposure to different hormone levels, is a significant biological factor.
    • Epigenetics:
      Modifications to genes (epigenetics) from factors like maternal diet or stress during pregnancy also play a part.
    • Brain Structure:
      Differences in brain structure linked to sexual orientation are also being studied.
What Science Says:
    • Biological Basis:
      Research points to a spectrum of biological factors present during early fetal development, making sexual orientation as innate as other traits.
    • Not a Choice:
      The idea that sexual orientation is a choice or result of upbringing (like childhood trauma) is outdated and unsupported by evidence.
    • Complex Interaction:
      No single factor determines orientation; it's a complex interplay of biology and environment (mostly prenatal), not social environment post-birth.
In summary, while we don't know every detail, science leans heavily towards sexual orientation being a fundamental, biologically influenced aspect of a person, established early in life, rather than a conscious choice or learned preference.
 
Shiftless2 said:
If that's the case how can a cis person be any of hetero, gay, bisexual, pansexual, omnisexual, or asexual. (The same goes for trans individuals.)

And how does asexuality fit into that"




I think you're confusing "desire" with the underlying orientation.

From the AI overview on the subject:

... scientific evidence strongly suggests sexual orientation is largely innate, developing from a complex mix of genetic, hormonal, and prenatal environmental factors, rather than being a choice or learned behavior, though the exact causes are still researched and it's not determined by a single "gay gene". Major medical and psychological organizations view it as a natural variation, with biological influences shaping it before or around birth.

Key Factors Influencing Sexual Orientation:
  • Genetics:
    Genes play a role, but it's polygenic, meaning many genes contribute small effects, similar to height, not a single gene.

    • Prenatal Hormones:
      The uterine environment, including exposure to different hormone levels, is a significant biological factor.
    • Epigenetics:
      Modifications to genes (epigenetics) from factors like maternal diet or stress during pregnancy also play a part.
    • Brain Structure:
      Differences in brain structure linked to sexual orientation are also being studied.
What Science Says:
    • Biological Basis:
      Research points to a spectrum of biological factors present during early fetal development, making sexual orientation as innate as other traits.
    • Not a Choice:
      The idea that sexual orientation is a choice or result of upbringing (like childhood trauma) is outdated and unsupported by evidence.
    • Complex Interaction:
      No single factor determines orientation; it's a complex interplay of biology and environment (mostly prenatal), not social environment post-birth.
In summary, while we don't know every detail, science leans heavily towards sexual orientation being a fundamental, biologically influenced aspect of a person, established early in life, rather than a conscious choice or learned preference.
Click to expand...


I still not get your point because I do not believe there is an "orientation" other than role models society tries to impose, and "desires".

And some of the claims I disagree with.
Such as "Not a Choice", says, "The idea that sexual orientation is a choice or result of upbringing (like childhood trauma) is outdated and unsupported by evidence."
And that is contradictory.
Upbringing, (like childhood trauma) is not a "choice".
The gay men I know tend to have abusive mothers, and the gay women I know tend to have deficient fathers.
So then it does not have to a choice or genetic.
 
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