News Related To The Ukraine / Russian War

Part II of II

As Putin was massing his forces on Ukraine's border preparing to invade I'd have thought this suggestion a total stinker. BUT
in the murmur of details disclosed about Ukraine / Russian negotiations, your #177 may be well worth considering.

"Referendum" a key word.
Russia / Putin is closely associated with crooked elections. So election / vote legitimacy would have to be adequately insured, verified.

As long as the un-coerced will of the People was legitimately obtained, seems like an idea well worth considering.

Problem is, the real world.
IF such program were undertaken, the Kremlin's propaganda machine would be throttled up to full tilt.

Voters would need enough months to cut through the propaganda, enough time to review the data, the economic, social, & geographic implications of each option.

It is not nearly that hypothetical.
The ethnic Polish and ethnic Russians of the Ukraine have always hated each other and do not even speak the same languages.
It was only the pro-Russian politicians who kept the peace all these years.
Now Zelensky has even recognized the fascist Azov Battalion as a legitimate armed forced group instead of the criminal terrorist they have always actually been.
So separation is the only viable alternative.
With the only remaining question being if Poland gets just half, or a little more than that?
 
"There is no way Russia can ever allow the Ukraine to become hostile to Russia." R5 #180
Please cite 3 examples of Ukraine inflicting territorial conquest on Russia, to permanently expand Ukraine's sovereign territory.

"Zelensky has to go, since he tried to join NATO 4 times now." R5 #180
In Gaza both Palestinians and Israelis can cite a previous event as justification for the next atrocity.

Is there any evidence Ukraine has been a threat to Russia?
Even in current negotiations, Russia seeks to retain Ukrainian territory it invaded and occupies.

Is it incorrect to say Russia is the aggressor?
Is it incorrect to say NATO is a defensive alliance?
Sweden joined NATO last year. Why? Because NATO armored cav. thundered into Stockholm? No. To discourage Russian military expansion.

It is not nearly that hypothetical.
The ethnic Polish and ethnic Russians of the Ukraine have always hated each other and do not even speak the same languages.
It was only the pro-Russian politicians who kept the peace all these years.
Yet there wasn't much news from there about discord before Putin's invasion.
Instead Ukraine seemed not merely surviving, but improving after Cold War totalitarianism, exporting grain to the 3rd World, etc.
Thousands of nuclear arms had been left on Ukrainian soil by Moscow after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991. But in the years that followed, Ukraine made the decision to completely denuclearize.
In exchange, the U.S., the U.K. and Russia would guarantee Ukraine's security in a 1994 agreement known as the Budapest Memorandum.
The solution you suggest is to form an agreement to solve a problem with Russia caused by Russia abrogating the previous agreement.

Your reasoning seems lucid.
The indication there's a problem with it is, Ukrainians understand they have that option, and have chosen near stalemate bloodshed instead. We can assume they're simply stupid. Or we can acknowledge a more fundamental reality. Ukrainians understand as with the Budapest Memorandum, dealing with Russia means short term gain for long term pain.

Now Zelensky has even recognized the fascist Azov Battalion as a legitimate armed forced group instead of the criminal terrorist they have always actually been.
Multiple reports indicate Putin has offered to commute the sentence of Russian prisoners / criminals, for joining the Russian military to fight in Ukraine.

It's the way politics stabilizes.
Democrats have been "gerrymandering" to balance out the Republicans that initiated gerrymandering to solidify Trump's death grip on congress after the mid-term elections.

"So separation is the only viable alternative." R5 #181
The reason we know it's more complicated than that is because of Ukraine's status a month, a year, a decade before Putin invaded. By what criterion could we declare that not viable?
I suspect many in Ukraine, and many more to the West would be delighted to return to pre-invasion Ukraine.

"The ethnic Polish and ethnic Russians of the Ukraine have always hated each other and do not even speak the same languages." R5 #181
I'm still puzzling over this one.
In U.S. "melting-pot"/"mosaic" terms we blend some, though in some regard remain segregated.

How can we know if the division you've described were implemented, the original Polish in Poland would resent the Ukrainians as much as the "ethnic Russians" you describe?
 

Ukraine says it carried out first-ever underwater drone strike on Russian submarine in Novorossiysk

Ukraine said Monday it carried out an underwater drone strike that critically damaged a Russian Kilo-class submarine docked in the port of Novorossiysk, marking the first known attack of its kind.
The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) said its "Sub Sea Baby" underwater drones struck a Russian submarine equipped with four launchers for Kalibr cruise missiles used to target Kyiv and other parts of the country.
The operation was carried out by the Ukrainian Navy and the SBU's 13th Main Directorate of Military Counterintelligence.
 
Please cite 3 examples of Ukraine inflicting territorial conquest on Russia, to permanently expand Ukraine's sovereign territory.


In Gaza both Palestinians and Israelis can cite a previous event as justification for the next atrocity.

Is there any evidence Ukraine has been a threat to Russia?
Even in current negotiations, Russia seeks to retain Ukrainian territory it invaded and occupies.

Is it incorrect to say Russia is the aggressor?
Is it incorrect to say NATO is a defensive alliance?
Sweden joined NATO last year. Why? Because NATO armored cav. thundered into Stockholm? No. To discourage Russian military expansion.


Yet there wasn't much news from there about discord before Putin's invasion.
Instead Ukraine seemed not merely surviving, but improving after Cold War totalitarianism, exporting grain to the 3rd World, etc.

The solution you suggest is to form an agreement to solve a problem with Russia caused by Russia abrogating the previous agreement.

Your reasoning seems lucid.
The indication there's a problem with it is, Ukrainians understand they have that option, and have chosen near stalemate bloodshed instead. We can assume they're simply stupid. Or we can acknowledge a more fundamental reality. Ukrainians understand as with the Budapest Memorandum, dealing with Russia means short term gain for long term pain.


Multiple reports indicate Putin has offered to commute the sentence of Russian prisoners / criminals, for joining the Russian military to fight in Ukraine.

It's the way politics stabilizes.
Democrats have been "gerrymandering" to balance out the Republicans that initiated gerrymandering to solidify Trump's death grip on congress after the mid-term elections.


The reason we know it's more complicated than that is because of Ukraine's status a month, a year, a decade before Putin invaded. By what criterion could we declare that not viable?
I suspect many in Ukraine, and many more to the West would be delighted to return to pre-invasion Ukraine.


I'm still puzzling over this one.
In U.S. "melting-pot"/"mosaic" terms we blend some, though in some regard remain segregated.

How can we know if the division you've described were implemented, the original Polish in Poland would resent the Ukrainians as much as the "ethnic Russians" you describe?


All of the ethnic Polish in the Ukraine are from Polish aggression.
All of the Ukraine should be ethnic Russia.
That is what it historically used to be and it was benevolent for the Russians to allow the defeated Polish to remain.
The ethnic Polish of the Ukraine have a history of being so racist and fascist that they ran Hitler's death camps for him during WWII.

The evidence of Polish aggression in the Ukraine was proven by the massacre of over 30k ethnic Russians after the 2014 Maidan Coup that ended the democracy there.
The ethnic Polish government that took over by force has continually tried to join NATO, and NATO has always tried to put offensive nukes on Russia's order.
Trying to join NATO is a direct treaty violation that is an act of war.

NATO is not at all "defensive", but instead are the colonial imperialists who tried to subjugate most of the world, and started both world wars.
The fact they started NATO later, does not change the fact the British, French, and the US, are the worst colonial imperialists in the whole world.

But you are correct that the ethnic Polish in the Ukraine could be so isolated in time that the Polish would not get along with them either?
 
All of the ethnic Polish in the Ukraine are from Polish aggression.
All of the Ukraine should be ethnic Russia.
That is what it historically used to be and it was benevolent for the Russians to allow the defeated Polish to remain.
The ethnic Polish of the Ukraine have a history of being so racist and fascist that they ran Hitler's death camps for him during WWII.

The evidence of Polish aggression in the Ukraine was proven by the massacre of over 30k ethnic Russians after the 2014 Maidan Coup that ended the democracy there.
The ethnic Polish government that took over by force has continually tried to join NATO, and NATO has always tried to put offensive nukes on Russia's order.
Trying to join NATO is a direct treaty violation that is an act of war.

NATO is not at all "defensive", but instead are the colonial imperialists who tried to subjugate most of the world, and started both world wars.
The fact they started NATO later, does not change the fact the British, French, and the US, are the worst colonial imperialists in the whole world.

But you are correct that the ethnic Polish in the Ukraine could be so isolated in time that the Polish would not get along with them either?
Self-determination.
 
"All of the ethnic Polish in the Ukraine are from Polish aggression.
All of the Ukraine should be ethnic Russia." R5 #184
There are complications.

Context: Crimea
Putin grabbed Crimea, and shrugs off the Obama administration sanctions imposed on Putin / Russia as consequence.
This has emboldened the aggressor, Putin now trying to add a substantial portion of Ukraine to Russia's trophy case.

Bottom line, if Putin isn't smacked down HARD, forced to pay a painful price for his military adventurism,
if instead of that Putin is $richly rewarded, there is certain to be more military conquest attempts from Russia in the future.
Multiple mutually corroborating sources report Russia is currently upgrading its military in preparation for future conquests beyond Ukraine.

"Self-determination." t #185
R5 has outlined prospective tensions if Western-friendly Ukraine-friendly resolution is brought to Russia's occupation of Ukraine.

Can there be both? Restoring stable, uncontested international borders, and populations that embrace peaceful prosperity?
 
Self-determination.

Illegal invaders do not get the right of "self-determination" since their act of invasion had to goal of ending "self-determination" of the natives to begin with.
And the Old Polish Empire that tried unsuccessfully to invade Russia, was incredibly evil and racist.
Their history is that of the Scythians and Cimmerians like Vlad the Impaler, and they were the ones who ran Hitler's death camps in WWII.
 
"Illegal invaders do not get the right of "self-determination" since their act of invasion had to goal of ending "self-determination" of the natives to begin with." R5 #187
Not sure what timeline you have in mind here, but I get the impression Russia's current mortal martial combat inflicted on (formerly?) sovereign Ukraine cannot be excused or ignored based upon previous events generations in the past.

"And the Old Polish Empire that tried unsuccessfully to invade Russia, was incredibly evil and racist." R5 #187
And therefore an inadequate basis for modifying today's international borders.
 
There are complications.

Context: Crimea
Putin grabbed Crimea, and shrugs off the Obama administration sanctions imposed on Putin / Russia as consequence.
This has emboldened the aggressor, Putin now trying to add a substantial portion of Ukraine to Russia's trophy case.

Bottom line, if Putin isn't smacked down HARD, forced to pay a painful price for his military adventurism,
if instead of that Putin is $richly rewarded, there is certain to be more military conquest attempts from Russia in the future.
Multiple mutually corroborating sources report Russia is currently upgrading its military in preparation for future conquests beyond Ukraine.


R5 has outlined prospective tensions if Western-friendly Ukraine-friendly resolution is brought to Russia's occupation of Ukraine.

Can there be both? Restoring stable, uncontested international borders, and populations that embrace peaceful prosperity?

Sorry. but I really disagree about the Crimea.
The Crimea was originally grabbed from the Russians by the Mongols around 1200 AD, and known as the Khanate even after the Mongols left.
It was never owned legally by the ethnic Polish Ukrainians.
It is true Khruschev gave the Crimea to the Ukraine, from Russia, in 1953, but that was not really legal.
And Khruschev was secretly a Ukrainian.
What made it immoral was that the Crimea is mostly Asian Tatars and Cossacks, and the ethnic Polish Ukrainians hate and abuse Asians.
If we were interested in "self-determination", then the Crimea should be made independent, given to the Asian Turks in Turkey, or at least returned to Russia.

The pragmatic reality is that the ethnic Polish continually want to join alliances hostile to Russia, even though they signed treaties to never do that.
And if they ever were allowed to join NATO, that would eventually mean US nukes on Russia's border.
Russia can never allow that for the pragmatic reason that their defense grid is around the Ukraine and not between the Ukraine and Russia.
That means Russia can not detect a launch from the Ukraine.
Which means if the Ukraine were ever allowed to join NATO, Russia would be forced to pre-emptively nuke the US, since they would have no other defense option left to them.
Compare the Ukraine joining NATO with the Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962.
 
Not sure what timeline you have in mind here, but I get the impression Russia's current mortal martial combat inflicted on (formerly?) sovereign Ukraine cannot be excused or ignored based upon previous events generations in the past.


And therefore an inadequate basis for modifying today's international borders.

The Ukraine was never really "sovereign".
The Ukraine was historically always the most important part of Russia.
Kyiv was the capital of Russia from 900 AD to 1200 AD, and only got moved to Moscow in an attempt to escape the Mongol invasion.

The Old Polish Empire tried to invade Russia and lost around 1700, but we do not reward illegal invasions by giving the losers sovereignty.
The Old Polish Empire was defeated by a united coalition of European countries because it was so evil and abusive.
That is why Poland disappeared and became a state of the German Republic for centuries.

The Ukraine was created entirely by the Treaty of Versailles as an illegal means of punishing the Bolshevik revolution n 1920.
They did not have the authority or the justification for creating a sovereign country called the Ukraine.
And that is obvious because it never got a chance to exist, and was immediately taken back by the USSR.

When the USSR dissolved in 1992, the treaties stated, "no eastern advancement of NATO", and "no alliances hostile to Russia", which after the 2014 Maidan Coup, Kyiv has violated consistently, as well as murdering over 30k ethnic Russian natives of the Ukraine by the racist Azov Battalion.
So it is not just "previous events generations in the past".
The ethnic Polish we put in charge of Kyiv do not reflect the majority in the Ukraine, and are not capable of protecting the rights of everyone fairly, since they have a current history of being incredibly racist.
emblem-of-the-azov-battalion-3d-model-aac2bcdf70.webp
 
"The Ukraine was never really "sovereign"." R5 #190
Debatable perhaps. But do you mean to suggest Ukraine was paying taxes to some internationally recognized entity beyond Ukraine's pre-Russian invasion borders? Those Ukraine borders recognized internationally in 2019?
If you have information to the contrary please share. But so far as I've read, Russia isn't really making a rescue argument, that the territory it has invaded & occupied is being repatriated.

"The Ukraine was historically always the most important part of Russia.
Kyiv was the capital of Russia from 900 AD to 1200 AD, and only got moved to Moscow in an attempt to escape the Mongol invasion." R5 #190
I'd have found that more persuasive in the years 901, or 1201. BUT !
In my opinion, to deprive the natives of either the property where they live (whether rented or owned), or the national status they've accepted since birth,
for the ostensible purpose of righting something perceived in the 3rd millennium as something askew early in the 2nd millennium is conspicuously preposterous.

Though I don't know specific details about how if at all it applies in European law / international law, in the U.S. we have a standard called "settled law".
CERTAINLY our courts can rule a statute unConstitutional, & even overturn its own precedent as it did in Roe / Dobbs. BUT,
it's the exception, not the rule.
of protecting the rights of everyone fairly, since they have a current history of being incredibly racist.
 
Debatable perhaps. But do you mean to suggest Ukraine was paying taxes to some internationally recognized entity beyond Ukraine's pre-Russian invasion borders? Those Ukraine borders recognized internationally in 2019?
If you have information to the contrary please share. But so far as I've read, Russia isn't really making a rescue argument, that the territory it has invaded & occupied is being repatriated.


I'd have found that more persuasive in the years 901, or 1201. BUT !
In my opinion, to deprive the natives of either the property where they live (whether rented or owned), or the national status they've accepted since birth,
for the ostensible purpose of righting something perceived in the 3rd millennium as something askew early in the 2nd millennium is conspicuously preposterous.

Though I don't know specific details about how if at all it applies in European law / international law, in the U.S. we have a standard called "settled law".
CERTAINLY our courts can rule a statute unConstitutional, & even overturn its own precedent as it did in Roe / Dobbs. BUT,
it's the exception, not the rule.
of protecting the rights of everyone fairly, since they have a current history of being incredibly racist.


I have no idea what you are talking about, so I think I must not have been clear.
Let me try a better example.

{...
On May 2, 2014, heavily-armed fascist militia forces attacked the House of Trade Unions in Odessa, Ukraine. Trapped inside were demonstrators opposed to the right-wing government in Kiev that had been put in place in a U.S.-orchestrated coup just weeks earlier.

The new government had been established in the wake of the February 2014 “Euromaidan” protests that overthrew the corrupt albeit democratically-elected administration of President Viktor Yanukovych. Trying to play Russia and the EU off one another to get the best economic deal for Ukraine when he was in charge, Yanukovych became the target of Western-backed business interests in Ukraine and ultra-nationalist groups. The latter joined together, with U.S. support, to carry out a coup and sent Yanukovych running for Moscow.

In the wake of that coup,
labor unions and left-wing parties were severely repressed in Ukraine, and activists of the Communist Party of Ukraine and other groups were forced underground. Across the country, a campaign of ethnic erasure was launched against Russian-speaking Ukrainians, with the Russian language being banned from public life.

In the mostly Russian regions of eastern Ukraine, a violent war ensued between the Kiev government and separatists. By the end of 2021, it had taken over 15,000 lives. Commanders from openly neo-Nazi and fascist groups like the Azov Battalion were integrated to become brigades of the official Ukrainian Armed Forces and given free rein in the Donbass.

So, by the time that Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered his military to invade Ukraine in February 2022, war had already been raging for years in eastern Ukraine. Chances for peace—both before and after the invasion—were repeatedly scuttled, often at the insistence of Kiev’s allies in Washington.

The Odessa trade union massacre was one of the earliest of many atrocities committed in the war in Ukraine. The Right Sector militia celebrated the mass murder that happened that day, calling it “yet another bright page in our fatherland’s history.” None of the perpetrators were ever brought to justice, and some of the massacre’s coordinators even ended up as members of parliament.

The article below, by John Wojcik, appeared in People’s World just after the attack. As the article reports, the death toll was believed to be 39 at the time; it was later confirmed to be 48.

Much of the Western media either ignored the massacre or blamed the victims themselves for setting the fire that killed them and is one of the most-read People’s World articles of the past decade.
Ukrainian right wingers burn alive 39 protestors at Odessa union building
By John Wojcik
People’s World | May 5, 2014


Some 1,000 Ukrainian rightists, led by the notorious Right Sector, surrounded, stormed, and burned the House of Trade Unions in Odessa last Friday, killing 39 pro-Russia demonstrators in the building.
...}

The point being that the ethnic Polish we bribed to conduct the military coup in the Ukraine, have been massacring native or Asian people.
 
"Ukrainian right wingers burn alive 39 protestors at Odessa union building
By John Wojcik
People’s World | May 5, 2014


Some 1,000 Ukrainian rightists, led by the notorious Right Sector, surrounded, stormed, and burned the House of Trade Unions in Odessa last Friday, killing 39 pro-Russia demonstrators in the building.
...}
The point being that the ethnic Polish we bribed to conduct the military coup in the Ukraine, have been massacring native or Asian people." R5 #192
I'm not endorsing such carnage, which I'd like to believe was illegal.

It's not in the least clear to me that Russian military invasion / occupation / conquest / assimilation is an appropriate remedy.
 
I'm not endorsing such carnage, which I'd like to believe was illegal.

It's not in the least clear to me that Russian military invasion / occupation / conquest / assimilation is an appropriate remedy.


The Russian military intervention is vastly more desirable than the military dictatorship that took over in 2014.
The legal government had just been democratically elected in 2012, and they were all killed, imprisoned, or exiled.

But that is not what the Russian intervention was caused by.
It was caused by the treaty violations, such as trying to stop Russian use of Sevastopol, cutting off negotiations, and attempting to put NATO nukes on Russia's border.
 
The Ukraine has no history of its own.
It is "the contested lands" between the Old Polish Empire and Russia.
Those are adversaries, and can not coexist in the same country.
If you want to get a better feel for how hated the Old Polish Empire was, I suggest the movie "Taras Bulba" with Yul Brenner and Tony Curtis as Cossacks abused by the Polish.
Its not quite accurate since it leaves Russia out of the movie completely.
But it shows the arrogance and racism of the Old Polish Empire.
{...

Plot​

In the 17th century, Ukraine, Russia, Poland, and elsewhere in eastern Europe are divided into small sections and principalities that fight each other or against one enemy: in this case, the Ottoman Empire. A battle rages between the Turks and the Poles. The Poles are losing until the Cossacks arrive to save the day. However, it turns out that the Poles are merely holding back in order to treacherously attack the Cossacks after they win the battle for them. As a result, the Poles become masters of Ukraine and the Cossacks are subjugated. Taras Bulba, one of the Cossack colonels, returns home to raise his family but now it is under Polish dominion. Taras and the other Cossacks of the Cossack Brotherhood burn their farms and take to the hills and forests rather than submit to the Poles.

Two decades later, Taras sends his two sons, Andriy and Ostap to the academy at Kiev, to obtain a Polish education. There, the elder son, Andriy, falls in love with a Polish princess, Natalia Dubrov, to the ire of the locals, who treat the Cossack brothers like scum of the earth. Ultimately, the brothers are forced to flee Kiev, returning to their father’s house on the Ukrainian steppes.

There, word comes that the Poles want the Cossacks to raise an army to help them in a new war. When Andriy objects to fighting for the Poles, he is accused of being a coward. This is a serious offense that can only be resolved by a test of courage. Andriy and his accuser ride and jump their horses over a chasm until God chooses which one is right by having the accuser fall to his death. Taras embraces Andriy’s lead. He plans to betray the Poles and take back Ukraine.

Ivan Mykola, Hetman of the Cossack Brotherhood, summons the Brotherhood to fight in the Baltic region under Polish command. Taras Bulba balks, saying the time has come to avenge the Polish treachery of twenty years before. The Hetman says he has sworn the Brotherhood will follow him to the Baltic. Taras says they will not go and calls on the Brethren to decide whom they will follow. They choose Taras. The deposed Hetman says he cannot follow, and is ridden down by the Brotherhood as Taras takes the Holy Banner of St. Michael and with it, command.
...}
 
"The Russian military intervention is vastly more desirable than the military dictatorship that took over in 2014." R5 #194
"Vastly more desirable"? To whom? This insinuates those fighting and dying on behalf of Ukraine sovereignty are sooooo stupid they don't even know what's in their own enlightened self-interest. So they march by the thousands into the lethal meat-grinder.
That may be regarded as one possible explanation.
It is not the Ockham's Razor explanation.

Even if you were right, it's not for you to dictate to them.
"American people are friends of Liberty everywhere, but custodians only of their own." John Adams
Think it through.
Which nation has provided the superior standard of living in the new millennium?

Your observations about ethnicity may be spot on. BUT !
It's a mistake to assume that ethnic Russians living in Ukraine would prefer to pay tax to Moscow than Kyyiv.

Reductio ad absurdum:
citing history from a millennium ago is fine. It doesn't explain why the People of Ukraine appear to support the War against Russia.
If it were otherwise wouldn't they have gotten rid of President Zelenskyy by now?
 
"Vastly more desirable"? To whom? This insinuates those fighting and dying on behalf of Ukraine sovereignty are sooooo stupid they don't even know what's in their own enlightened self-interest. So they march by the thousands into the lethal meat-grinder.
That may be regarded as one possible explanation.
It is not the Ockham's Razor explanation.

Even if you were right, it's not for you to dictate to them.

Think it through.
Which nation has provided the superior standard of living in the new millennium?

Your observations about ethnicity may be spot on. BUT !
It's a mistake to assume that ethnic Russians living in Ukraine would prefer to pay tax to Moscow than Kyyiv.

Reductio ad absurdum:
citing history from a millennium ago is fine. It doesn't explain why the People of Ukraine appear to support the War against Russia.
If it were otherwise wouldn't they have gotten rid of President Zelenskyy by now?


I don't see why you don't get it yet.
The government is Kyiv now is NOT "the Ukraine".
It is a military takeover bribed by the US.

There is no question at all the ethnic Russians living in the Ukraine prefer Russia.
The ethnic Polish generals in Kyiv are trying to kill them all.

The only way to tell is to look at poll BEFORE the Maidan Coup of 2014.

{...
A Gallup poll conducted in October 2008 showed that 43% of Ukrainians associated NATO as a threat to their country, while only 15% associated it with protection.
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Ukraine#cite_note-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a>
A November 2009 poll by Ukrainian Project System relieved 40.1% of Ukrainians polled said the Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) was the best global security group for Ukraine to be a part of and 33.9% of the respondents supported Ukraine's full membership in CSTO; more than 36% of the respondents of the poll said that Ukraine should remain neutral and only 12.5% supported Ukraine's accession to NATO.
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refer...Ukrainian_Project_System_poll_November_2009-2"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a>
A 2009 Gallup poll showed that 40% of Ukrainian adults associate NATO with "Threat" and 17% with "Protection".
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Ukraine#cite_note-Gallup52010-3"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a>
According to a poll by Razumkov Center in March 2011 20.6% on average across Ukraine considered NATO a threat; this number was 51% in Crimea.
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Ukraine#cite_note-IamUkie-4"><span>[</span>4<span>]</span></a>
A 2013 Gallup poll showed that 29% associated NATO with "Threat" and 17% with "Protection"; 44% viewed it as neither.
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Ukraine#cite_note-GallupMarch_14,_2014-5"><span>[</span>5<span>]</span></a>
...}

Russia likely would not care at all about the Ukraine being taken over, except that like the US nukes we put in Turkey and Poland, obviously the US did this all just so we can put nukes on Russia's border.
 

Ukraine says it carried out first-ever underwater drone strike on Russian submarine in Novorossiysk

Ukraine said Monday it carried out an underwater drone strike that critically damaged a Russian Kilo-class submarine docked in the port of Novorossiysk, marking the first known attack of its kind.
The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) said its "Sub Sea Baby" underwater drones struck a Russian submarine equipped with four launchers for Kalibr cruise missiles used to target Kyiv and other parts of the country.
The operation was carried out by the Ukrainian Navy and the SBU's 13th Main Directorate of Military Counterintelligence.


This should be another obvious clue.
The Ukraine had no navy and no drone at all before the US started bribing and arming them.
So this is not a war between the Ukraine and Russia, but a proxy war between the US and Russia.
The ethnic Polish in Kyiv are totally using US weapons and there are hundreds of US trainers in the Ukraine.
 
"I don't see why you don't get it yet.
The government is Kyiv now is NOT "the Ukraine".
It is a military takeover bribed by the US." R5 #197
You seem to think if I could comprehend this (the missing puzzle piece) the rest of the picture would suddenly become clear.
That SURELY would explain it, IF I didn't get it. BUT !

That's not the only possible explanation.
The true reason is, whether or not it's true is immaterial.
The good People of Ukraine want to preserve the border recognized before Russia invaded, and they're willing to DIE to do so.

"It is a military takeover bribed by the US." R5 #197
Fine. That would explain it.
That's not the only possible explanation.
And apparently both public opinion within Ukraine, and
public opinion in the bulk of Western Europe / EU / NATO supports the popular public opinion continuing to prevail after years of massive carnage in their own home nation, or what they perceive as such.
"Truth is not determined by majority opinion." Italo Benin PhD

I'm not asserting that they are all right, and you are all wrong. It's more basic than that.
Even if you're 100% correct it doesn't matter, because they are entitled to what THEY want, not necessarily what you want.

"There is no question at all the ethnic Russians living in the Ukraine prefer Russia.
The ethnic Polish generals in Kyiv are trying to kill them all." R5 #197
If there's a compelling reason that is an overarching factor that must be included in addressing the Ukraine / Russian War, please share.

You cite a serious issue. I do not advocate or support "the ethnic Polish generals in Kyiv trying to kill them all."

- BUT -

I know of no reason these two exceedingly important issues cannot be addressed independently. What say we prioritize. Let's first stop the one that's killing the most humans. That's the Russian invasion / occupation / conquest. Right?
If not, I'll suspend on that priority to join you in addressing the even more severe problem you cite.

But unless you can vividly define that, I believe it's the War that's the major killer right now.
And as it was between Israel & Hamas:
it's foolish to believe the differences between these two groups can be settled directly. SO ?!
So we've opted to attend to stopping the War. Then after the carnage of that War is over, we can attend to the more delicate task of peace between Israel & neighbors.
 
You seem to think if I could comprehend this (the missing puzzle piece) the rest of the picture would suddenly become clear.
That SURELY would explain it, IF I didn't get it. BUT !

That's not the only possible explanation.
The true reason is, whether or not it's true is immaterial.
The good People of Ukraine want to preserve the border recognized before Russia invaded, and they're willing to DIE to do so.


Fine. That would explain it.
That's not the only possible explanation.
And apparently both public opinion within Ukraine, and
public opinion in the bulk of Western Europe / EU / NATO supports the popular public opinion continuing to prevail after years of massive carnage in their own home nation, or what they perceive as such.
"Truth is not determined by majority opinion." Italo Benin PhD

I'm not asserting that they are all right, and you are all wrong. It's more basic than that.
Even if you're 100% correct it doesn't matter, because they are entitled to what THEY want, not necessarily what you want.


If there's a compelling reason that is an overarching factor that must be included in addressing the Ukraine / Russian War, please share.

You cite a serious issue. I do not advocate or support "the ethnic Polish generals in Kyiv trying to kill them all."

- BUT -

I know of no reason these two exceedingly important issues cannot be addressed independently. What say we prioritize. Let's first stop the one that's killing the most humans. That's the Russian invasion / occupation / conquest. Right?
If not, I'll suspend on that priority to join you in addressing the even more severe problem you cite.

But unless you can vividly define that, I believe it's the War that's the major killer right now.
And as it was between Israel & Hamas:
it's foolish to believe the differences between these two groups can be settled directly. SO ?!
So we've opted to attend to stopping the War. Then after the carnage of that War is over, we can attend to the more delicate task of peace between Israel & neighbors.


This is not something Russia has any choice about.
The ethnic Polish generals in Kyiv tried to prevent Russia access to Sevastopol, which Russia could not allow.
The ethnic Polish generals encouraged the Azov Battalion of racist/fascists to start murdering tens of thousands of natives who had Russian accents.
The ethnic Polish generals tried to put NATO nukes on Russia's border.
In 2022, the ethnic Polish general severed all communications with Moscow, ending any further possible negotiations.

In both wars, the Ukraine and Palestine, the point is to find out what changed to start the violence.
In Palestine, it was Menachem Begin blowing up the British peacekeepers so no one could stop Irgun, Stern, and Lehi from wiping out hundreds of native villages like Deir Yassin.
In the Ukraine, it was Hunter Biden delivering bribes to the ethnic Polish generals, for the Maidan Coup of 2014.
 
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