Shiftless2
Well-known member
Now that I've got your attention:
Let's talk about sex ....
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I'm not disputing the premise. But I don't recall a sexist attempting to justify their own bigotry on SRY.
The result, I suspect thus far this topic is a red herring, unless intended to target the literal-minded with the complications of over-simplification on this issue.
I have occasionally gotten the impression an ambiguously gendered person was spoiling for a confrontation. My request, please meet us half-way. If 100 persons are asked what Carol's sex is, and the 100 persons split 50:50 seems to me Carol should put more effort into making their choice more obvious.
Lots of complications:
I encountered a Mennonite woman @Wal~Mart. She was dressed as female, but had a beard. Turns out Mennonites have theological objection to their women plucking eyebrows etc.
I survived the encounter, but not unscathed.
I appreciate simple, clear rules, can't think of a better one in this regard than "the Golden Rule".
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." KJV Matthew 7:12 (the Golden Rule)
[Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.]
The result, I suspect thus far this topic is a red herring, unless intended to target the literal-minded with the complications of over-simplification on this issue.
That's not just sex / gender. That's human to human.
I have occasionally gotten the impression an ambiguously gendered person was spoiling for a confrontation. My request, please meet us half-way. If 100 persons are asked what Carol's sex is, and the 100 persons split 50:50 seems to me Carol should put more effort into making their choice more obvious.
Lots of complications:
I encountered a Mennonite woman @Wal~Mart. She was dressed as female, but had a beard. Turns out Mennonites have theological objection to their women plucking eyebrows etc.
I survived the encounter, but not unscathed.
I appreciate simple, clear rules, can't think of a better one in this regard than "the Golden Rule".
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." KJV Matthew 7:12 (the Golden Rule)
[Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.]
Shiftless2
Well-known member
No - the point is sex is not binary (neither is gender).
That point is well made.
Not clear to me what that has to do with according courtesy.
Perhaps it's my sub-lingual perception the conclusion is stronger than this specific argument. It's a minor quibble, a style quibble rather than a conclusion challenge.
I do get the impression definitions are applied here that may be narrower than the dictionary definition. "Gender" for example doesn't exclusively mean male or female, penis or vagina. Seems to me "gender" may sometimes be used as a synonym, a euphemism, to stiff-arm the determinative plumbing details.
Not at corporeal level, as you've made clear #3 etc.
I consider human reproduction a binary: male (sperm) & female (egg) at DNA level. BUT !!
Synergy complicates.
I feel a shade of guilt here S2, me squandering your time preaching to (sear) the choir. It's not easy to convert the already persuaded.
Not clear to me what that has to do with according courtesy.
Perhaps it's my sub-lingual perception the conclusion is stronger than this specific argument. It's a minor quibble, a style quibble rather than a conclusion challenge.
I do get the impression definitions are applied here that may be narrower than the dictionary definition. "Gender" for example doesn't exclusively mean male or female, penis or vagina. Seems to me "gender" may sometimes be used as a synonym, a euphemism, to stiff-arm the determinative plumbing details.
gen·der  (jĕndərn. 1. Grammar a. A grammatical category, often designated as male, female, or neuter, used in the classification of nouns, pronouns, adjectives, and, in some languages, verbs that may be arbitrary or based on characteristics such as sex or animacy and that determines agreement with or selection of modifiers, referents, or grammatical forms. b. The fact of being classified as belonging to such a category: agreement in gender, number, and case. 2. a. Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, by which most organisms are classified on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions; sex. b. One's identity as female or male or as neither entirely female nor entirely male. c. Females or males considered as a group: Students lined up with the genders in different lines. tr.v. gen·dered, gen·der·ing, gen·ders Archaic To engender. [Middle English gendre, from Old French, kind, gender, from Latin genus, gener-; see genə- in the Appendix of Indo-European roots.] gender·less adj. Usage Note: Some people maintain that the word sex should be reserved for reference to the biological aspects of being male or female or to sexual activity, and that the word gender should be used only to refer to sociocultural roles. Accordingly, one would say The effectiveness of the treatment appears to depend on the sex of the patient and In society, gender roles are clearly defined. In some situations this distinction avoids ambiguity, as in gender research, which is clear in a way that sex research is not. The distinction can be problematic, however. Linguistically, there isn't any real difference between gender bias and sex bias, and it may seem contrived to insist that sex is incorrect in this instance. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fifth Edition copyright ©2022 by HarperCollins Publishers. All rights reserved. |
Wilson.
Not at corporeal level, as you've made clear #3 etc.
I consider human reproduction a binary: male (sperm) & female (egg) at DNA level. BUT !!
Synergy complicates.
I feel a shade of guilt here S2, me squandering your time preaching to (sear) the choir. It's not easy to convert the already persuaded.
Shiftless2
Well-known member
The important thing about the correct definition is that any number of anti-trans laws are being passed that use incorrect (i.e., false) definitions of sex.
The bureaucratic bigots have fallen victim to the same English language obstacle others of us have.
As the definition in #4 shows, there are 3 English language categories: male, female, and neuter.
A similar problem in language arose from personal title. A man's title is "Mr" (mister) whether he's single, married, or widower. BUT !!
A woman's title is determined by her marital status, Miss vs Mrs. BUT !!
In real-time conversation which of these titles applies may not be evident. Negroes to the rescue! Ms = a title for a female regardless of her marital status. Problem solved?
Perhaps, in that narrow case. BUT !!
Not sure it helps much for the full suite of categories at issue here.
There's no denying some address insults are deliberate, mean-spirited.
But in other cases, in conversations on the fly among persons with the most sincere kind, accommodating intentions, supporting affirming intentions may simply not be enough.
That doesn't mean it's not a problem. But it suggests non-binarys may have some work to do to complete their share of the communication whole. In the Miss / Mrs. / Ms issue a wedding band on left ring finger can help.